Dealing w/ Outside Interests in Your Projects? 48
Anthony Boyd asks: "Last weekend, I built a web site that is a poor-man's version of Classmates. Except that it is custom-built just for my high-school, with no ads or fees. I got a fine response from the people that knew about it, and was busy reconnecting with lost friends... until [last week], when my school's alumni association called and gave me an earful of comments such as, 'that's a rogue site' and 'it may not be legal!' Turns out, they hoped to build something similar, as a platform to entice donations. So, I'm stuck. Before I do anything, I'd like to ask Slashdot: have the projects you built for 'just for fun' been overrun by outside interests? If so, what did you do, and what would you have done differently?"
One Option (Score:4, Funny)
Re:One Option (Score:1)
Re:One Option (Score:4, Insightful)
Send them packing (Score:5, Insightful)
--Mike--
Re:Send them packing (Score:1)
Put a copyright notice on your website (in case these guys try to rip you off) and tell them to get fucked.
If you want to be a bit more professional than that, tell them to get professionally fucked. :-)
Re:Send them packing (Score:3, Interesting)
I propose offering them a compromise. Change your scope. Let them build theirs and of
Re:Send them packing (Score:2)
Re:Send them packing (Score:4, Funny)
So close, yet so far away...
I'm waiting for the day that somebody says "I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Slashdot."
Re:Send them packing (Score:2)
IT IS NOT ILLEAL (Score:3, Redundant)
Re:IT IS NOT ILLEAL (Score:2)
Re:IT IS NOT ILLEAL (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:IT IS NOT ILLEAL (Score:1)
Similarly, if he uses the school's name in the site's domain name, they might sue him for that as well.
Sucks, don't it?
Fair Use (Score:1, Insightful)
Alumni relations- don't worry about it (Score:4, Interesting)
If they contact you about it again, tell them politely that you're exercising your rights as a public citizen and serving as a resource for alumni. If they would like to cooperate with you to avoid competiting services, that would be lovely; however, in the interests of alumni relations you would suggest that they cease their threats of legal action to avoid the inevitable bad press and probable decline in alumni support, as well as the embarrassing and ultimately expensive legal battle. If you keep getting problems, use your alumni network to find legal representation.
If it's a private school, though, you may well be screwed. I doubt it, but you may.
Too vague (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if you used any copyrighted logos or artwork swiped directly from their site or any of their literature, they could probably get an injunction based on that. So, make sure the site is either text-only, or that any logos that you do use are original works that you create. Since it sounds like this is a non-commercial endeavor I don't know exactly how trademark laws work but so long as you acknowledge all marks as being property of their owners and you're not selling something that's related in any way, then there's no reason that you can't use a logo of a product or institution.
In other words, I don't think it's illegal for me to put a picture of a box of "Kellogs Corn Flakes" on a web site, so long as I took the picture (i.e. I own the copyright), and I'm not trying to sell cereal.
I know that colleges are often very protective of their Mascots and logos since they want a piece of the pie in terms of merchandising and they don't want thier image tarnished. If they continue to object to your site (moreso than a "please stop") then it will probably be on these grounds.
Re:Too vague (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I'll be sad if I don't get any good feedback here, but I actually wasn't asking for advice on my situation in particular. I was hoping to provoke developers to comment on their own projects and the issues they have already faced. I find it is always more useful to hear about events that have actually happened, and how it played out, than to guess about what the best plan of action might be.
Anyway, it has actually been about 10 days since I submitted this Ask Slashdot story. So I'll give you my own story, full of incompetence, as it was my first experience with outsiders barging in. Basically, I graduated from my high school in 1989. I've fallen out of touch with many classmates, so I built an "approximation" of classmates.com. Mostly, I didn't want to pay $25 for a classmates.com membership. The site is not very good yet, and doesn't have all the features. But what is there works well, and I'd hold it against the PHP alumni projects on Freshmeat with fair confidence. About 50 people signed up initially (mostly friends I had emailed). Then came a call at 10 PM a couple weekends ago, from a graduate of 1956. He told me my project needed to be HIS project, and as head of the alumni association, if I did NOT come on board, "well, the site may not be legal, so there will be a problem."
I was non-commital on the phone, trying to say goodbye until about 11:15 PM, when I finally just said I was going to bed and hung up. The next day, other staff from the alumni association began sending nasty emails. One person got a rough list of who I had contacted, and sent an email out to my classmates warning that my site is (rough quote, off the top of my head) "unauthorized, unsanctioned, and running without the express permission of the alumni association." That same person sent a letter to the school board charging me with deception in the email I sent out (I said in the email that I didn't want to pay for classmates.com, but they looked on classmates.com, found my name, and incorrectly assumed I must have paid for access).
I soon learned that these people actually draw a salary from the alumni association, and had plans to strengthen their reserves by putting up a similar site with a $1000 "donation" fee. Since I wasn't willing to pay the $25 fee for classmates.com, I really wasn't willing to give over my code so they could charge me $1000 to use it. So, after a few days of going back and forth, I just stopped responding. They sent follow-up emails that still sit in my inbox, unanswered.
I have not retained a lawyer yet, as I feel that they are bluffing and have no case. However, if I have to interact with them at all in the future, my lawyer will do it. I just found them to be so hostile, that the bridge was burning even as they asked me to hand over my code and offered me a seat on the board. It's too bad. If they had been civil, I might have considered anything.
Re:Too vague (Score:5, Informative)
1) They have absolutely no case whatsoever in the United States, in Canada, in Mexico, or any place other than China, North Korea, or any other totalitarian state. Even if it's a private institution. Classmates.com could probably sue you for patent infringement, and probably successfully, but that's not their concern. They're spouting off, they're wrong, they could well be committing barratry.
2) If they sent an email or letter to the school board accusing you of deception, you might have a (relatively weak) chance of proving defamatory statements/libel. Get a copy of that letter. Even if for defensive purposes, get a copy of that letter. They're attempting to cast aspersions on your good moral character, and not only is that wrong, it's reason to countersue if they continue to countersue.
3) It should be obvious by now, but don't delete any messages. Keep 'em.
4) Make sure your classmates know that you're being accused falsely, that you have not broken any laws regarding the school, and that any emails they receive from the alumni association are false, potentially defamatory, and should be ignored.
5) Make sure you know a lawyer, and that he's familiar with your situation. Read all of their emails, but don't respond unless you really need to. If you need to, call your lawyer.
Re:Too vague (Score:1)
Sorry to get OT but surely this is misleading? China didn't even have copyright law until they joined the WTO - it's the western world that's going worryingly authoritarian on IP law.
With you on the rest though
Re:Too vague (Score:2)
It's got nothing to do with the law - it's a suggestion not to let people intimidate you with vague threats.
Re:Too vague (Score:1)
Sure, the alumni can whinge and spam and threaten too, thats their free speech.
I cant believe they tried to charge YOU $1000 and snake your code! They sound just like SCO.
You could consider charging them, to submit to their demands.
You seem to be in safe ground anyway as a website like that is solidly in free speech territory.
It is true however that its "unsanctioned, unoffici
Re:Too vague (Score:2)
Threats are not allowed, even with free speech.
Re:Too vague (Score:2)
I think you've done the right thing, even if you do have doubts. If they're defaming you, harrassing you, and threatening you, then they're certainly in the wrong. Even if your website is illegal (and I doubt that it is) they still can't act that way.
If nothing else, you seem to hold the moral high ground. The alumni staff are a disgrace to your school, and if I were in your shoes, I'd let the school board know that with a
Fight and, moreover, post your fight. (Score:4, Interesting)
Spurious legal threats, be they from lawyers or just the old boys' club, are one of the worst problems in the legal climate today. Since there's so little cost to fire off a Cease and Desist letter that sounds scary but is essentially contentless, corporations do it as a last resort to harass small developers who they'd never be able to beat in court. The only way I know of to fix this situation is to make there be a *high cost* for waging war against the small guy, and this could easily come in the form of bad publicity if people don't just shut down their sites right away.
By the way, yes, this has happened to me several times. Most recently was my battle with the DMCA over flipping embedding bits [cmu.edu]
Re:Fight and, moreover, post your fight. (Score:2)
Tom, thanks for posting this. I went through and read all the letters, and I think I've learned a lot. It appears that the end result was the same -- you stopped responding, and they gave up on intimidating you. Is that correct? It is good to see someone stand up to legal threats.
Re:Fight and, moreover, post your fight. (Score:1)
Re:Too vague (Score:2)
Carmel? (Score:2)
When they call you on the phone state at first that there is a 150$ per minute consultation fee for communications and (check your wiretap laws) you are going to send him a bill
Keep all your records and if you have to take up a civil action in court asking for relief.
i'd fight (Score:4, Interesting)
If they can't answer that, then I'd keep it going until I recieved a cease and desist. Assuming that there isn't any legal issues with the students names being printed there, what's the BFD?
Like I said, I'd fight, though I wouldn't rule out compromise. Maybe you could support donations for them?
Tell them to suck it.. (Score:1)
Odds are they are getting kick backs from Classmates. I really wonder sometimes because I went to a fairly large HS and they *HAD* a start of a webpage and it all disappeared.. Nothing, not even notices of Reunions. How
War is the last resort (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't turn this into a battle. What was the original purpose of your site? Not fame. Not fortune. To be connected with classmates. Offer your website gratis to the association if they fund the hosting and give you due credit. Then everybody wins. You get free hosting. The alumni gets their donations. Classmates get a better quality service.
Instead of fighting them, or bunkering down at the first threat of litigation (which was probably an ignorant threat with no merit), talk with them and work out how you can both benefit.
Unless they're assholes. In that case, tell them to get stuffed.
PS: I've never been in the situation that you describe but that's what I'd do.
Re:War is the last resort (Score:2)
It looks like they are (judging from the follow on comments).
People who fear for thier jobs are not reasonable.
Re:War is the last resort (Score:3, Interesting)
Tell him to save the olive branch for when he's truly done something wrong.
Re:War is the last resort (Score:1)
from it completely. It's been done before even when agreements have been involved.
Perhaps you can post a request on your site with information on donations for the alumni.
My response would be (Score:1)
Bad advice- don't do it. (Score:2)
Play to your strengths. (Score:5, Insightful)
Post a bulletin on your site explaining the situation, and provide the alumni association's contact information so your classmates ---who presumably enjoy your site and want it to continue--- can ``express their concerns''.
Then sit back, wait a bit, and enjoy the newly friendly and polite alumni association.
Nice (Score:2)
You aren't doing anything illegal, but you don't want to get them all hot and bothered either (don't give them any excuse to go into that "at any cost" mode.. that's when things start to suck, no matter who's "right").
Here's the strategy I'd use:
* Ignore their most inflammatory claims/demands. Just pretend that they are being completely reasonable, and ignore anything that doesn't fit that.
* Save copies of all of their emails.
* Tell them you would be willing to help out however
Will be doing same thing (Score:2)
But enough about me! I would have to say that you are perfectly within your rights to setup whatever you want and charge whatever you want for it. Although I wonder if classmates.com might come down on you with some lame "process for talking to classmates" IP sui
My response... (Score:1)
"expletia deleted."
Yours,
fish.
I'm confused (Score:1)
If the website is hosted on school property, then the school itself would have a say in the matter. But the alumni association is not the school, no matter how much influence they might have with it. If you're not disregarding any school rules with the website, then I would say ignore the alumnis, politely present your side to the school, then wait for a school administrator to make a
There ought to be (Score:1)
How are you stuck? (Score:1)
Businesses are simply not developing new stuff, for fear of getting sued by some patent-holder. They are only maintaining existing revenue streams.
Its a total mess. Aotearoa has recently set up another 5
You should compromise (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, happened to me. (Score:1)
Heard from the teacher's lounge... (Score:2)