IT Training in the Military? 344
firehzd1 asks: "Yesterday's article about the new Czar of Security for the Department of Homeland Security raises a very important question, especially lately. What type of opportunities are there for IT work in the military/government. It seems every article I read is bashing the govt/military for terrible IT decisions/systems but I never hear the other side of the story. How bout we hear from those in the field that can give us a idea of what it is like behind the other side of the heavily armed gate?"
Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:5, Informative)
Also, you might want to google for "Army Smartforce" for the latest information on computer based training for all soldiers, not just those in IT related jobs.
Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure anyone else here on slashdot would have agreed with me. In the exciting 74B school you will learn things such as installing Windows 2000 Professional and Server, adding users to the active directory, changing the background, etc., which lasts 2 weeks. You will repeat the same online quizzes over and over for two weeks while you cover A+ and N+. You will spend a week on the Unix command line, and a week on Solaris adding users and setting the time. You will learn about subnetting, configuring low-end Cisco switches and routers, and building a LAN. Oh, and then you'll learn Access 97.
The course was entirely geared for people with little or no computer experience. Some of the other trainees with me had CCNA's and MCSE's, yet no one was allowed to test out of any of the courses. Of course, the Army has needs for more than just installing windows and typing a few Unix commands, so we were always told that the "real learning" would occur during active duty, after AIT. I can't say what opportunities there are after AIT since I'm in the Reserves and choose to work in the civilian sector.
If you choose to go into this field, be aware that during the 4 months of AIT as a 74B (which I believe they are going to lengthen to 5 or 6 months) you will have little rights. If you're 17 or 35, you will lose a lot of things that you take for granted during your normal life. Despite being in the IT field, don't expect to have much access to Internet, or a computer for that matter. TV doesn't really exist, cars don't exist, cell phones exist 2 days a week (guess which ones).
Good luck to you if any of you choose this field in the Army. I was begging to go back to college by the time I got done with this course.
Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:4, Informative)
But as for the usefulness of the 31F training, Im currently sitting in the Balad area of Iraq. I have the best equipment that 1985 had to offer, and my net connection is on par w/ my dial up account I had as a kid. I was supposed to work with "high speed switching systems" but I think the fastest link that I've seen is 4096k so far. Most of my life I spend sitting in an aluminum/magnesium alloy shelter, and answering/fixing complaints/problems about phone service. My adivise to anyone considereing military IT, go get a student load or a grant and go to school.
Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:3, Insightful)
I had the dubious honor of being top in my class at 31M school- meaning I used PART of my brain. Despite my outstanding achievements, I was not eligible to attend the first 31F school- which they gave to the top 10% of Mikes at the time, because I had guaranteed station of choice (Germany) and they weren't going to have 31F equipment there for a while.
Went to Europe for 4 years, where once again, I couldn't go to Fox school, because my unit neede
Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:4, Informative)
In my experiece, the average 17-20 year old Signal Corps trainee is just like every other trainee. They are patriotic, eager, bright, and motivated. Unfortunately, there are also plenty of trainees who are undisiplined, whining little brats. They join the military and -- Surprise! -- it's tough. They get in Basic and AIT and they came to me and told me that training sucks.
And here's what I told them. Guess what -- it's supposed to be tough. It's part of the design. If it was easy and the DIs held your hand and pampered you along so that you didn't get your pretty little pink panties dirty, then we wouldn't have much of a military, would we? So sorry you're incovenienced.
This is the part of the session where the whiny little brat would say, "I miss my mom. I don't think I'm meant to be in the Army. I want out." I had the power to recommend to a soldier's Commander that the soldier be discharged from the Army and, most of the time, the Commander took my advice. So I pretty much had the power to let these brats get out of the Army.
My response to them? It's tough. It's meant to be that way. I'm recommending you stay in. You obviously need it as a character building exercise. Suck it up and drive on.
As far as the training goes, yes, AIT is not MIT, it's not RedHat boot camp. Most of the good stuff you learn, you learn on the job. Like most everything else in life, the experience is in large part what you make of it. If you spend your time partying, doing what you have to in order to get by, and showing up late for formations, you'll get the shit duties and learn nothing. If you bust your ass and make a soldier out of yourself and volunteer and work hard, you can do all kinds of stuff.
I was a mental health counselor. We had a psych test that we scored by hand and it was a pain in the ass. Without telling anyone what I was up to, I came in after hours for a while, taught myself to program, and wrote an application to score the test and print out a graph of the results. When I turned it in to my boss, I was awarded the Army Commendation Medal, and I was the only one in my unit below the rank of Sergeant to wear that ribbon. That's how I got started in IT. And I wasn't even in an IT MOS (military occupation specialty).
Summary:
1) The military is tough.
2) Garbage in, garbage out.
As Gomer Pyle, USMC, would say -- Surprise, surprise, surprise!
Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army (Score:3, Informative)
The only changes are the fact that the Air Force no longer has a programmer carrier field but merged it with the Computer Operator carrier field.
Anyway here it is
What to do after high school.
This is what worked for me and I'm sure you'll hate the Idea but...
Join the Air Force.
Now don't flame just hear me out.
If you are getting out of high school and are a computer g
There's lots of IT... but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just that all the jobs are about killing people.
You have to remember that these are people who gamble under the highest possible stakes: their own and other people's lives. When the stakes are that high, you simply DO NOT change ANYTHING until someone comes in and damned well proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that their new way is better.
Hence, the military definitely has a culture that corporate we weenies would probably identify as "Not Invented Here Syndrome." However, I argue that if ANYONE has a legitimate right to that position, it's the military.
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not all the jobs are about killing people either. In fact, when you look at the Air Force and the Navy, the overwhelming majority of jobs are there to support the 10% that "break things and kill people". I know that number is higher in the Army and Marines, but I'd be surprised if it were more than 60%.
The standard military mindset is to change everything you can, in order to 'leave your mark' on the organization, and generate performance review statements that make it look like you did lots of "good stuff(tm)" during your tour. Hell, if you look at the performance reviews of anyone in the Air Force, every damned person moves mountains, silently, in their sleep, under budget, and ahead of schedule. I fought and fought to rate a truly worthless upper-to-mid-level manager 3 out of 5 on his annual report, but was told I couldn't because it "didn't look good for him."
Remember - glossy ads and brochures are there to SELL you a product. If it's worth buying, you'd think they could just tell you the truth, but instead, the military has to keep bringing in million-dollar ad agencies to maintain their enlistment numbers... Something to keep in mind next time that stupid-assed "cross into the blue" Air Force commercial comes on TV.
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Back then the ISMO was a new animal and they pulled officers from all the other fields to staff the place. They opened up the computer field and sorted out the recruits based on good math skills, and logic to fill those positions. The peons really knew what they were doing. We were technically proficient, even though the tech was obsolete. Back then there was no budget for this stuff and the brass though we should be fine with the desktops they bought 5 years ago.
What really drove military IT into the ground was that you were paying a low ranking private first class about $800 a month to do what equally skills civilians where doing in the real world for $50-75k.
Everyone I knew that had any competence would leave the service after their first 4 years, grabbing jobs with major Telcos, Fortune 500's. These corporations didn't even try to hide it. They would spam our office, send headhunters on base, and negotiate salaries with you in front of your staff officers.
The ones that couldn't get the civilian jobs, loved the corps like it was an Elvis fan club, or were too dumb to make it in the real world. They would re-enlist and eventually become your superiors. Still making dumb mistakes and still having a poor grasp of technology. And it killed all of us to know what had to be done, knew what was technically feasible and what wasn't, and you couldn't make any kind of statement or suggestion without someone saying it was insubordination!!!
I don't know how it is now, but my guess is that they are doing a little better. Sure the budgets are still getting cut, and you can't speak unless spoke to, but the brass is more tech savy now, and with the economy in the toilet, just have a job is a luxury. Having one that can't fire you or lay you off is where its at. Hell, I'm probably making as much as they are now with the paycuts I took.
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Enlisted and Officers alike receive bare minimum training. The junior enlisted are divided into two pipelines, but mostly came from the old consolidated MOS of 4066 - Small Systems Computer Specialist (Name varies depending on who you talk to). Their course is about 2 months of learning how to install windows and other basic software, run basic network management tools, and generic introductions to major end uses of computers i.e. web, database, exchange, etc. They also receive a very quick course on the basics of networking with switches and routers, although most PFCs give you a blank stare if you ask for the Broadcast, Gateway, and IP range of a
The junior Marines get out into the Operating Forces and are promptly bombarded with distractions. Mess duty still exists in places, Camp services to keep the base clean, Camp guard, rifle range for two weeks a year, and a whole slew of minor classes, seminars, and stand downs that have no bearing on IT at all. Add in deployment time where they are stuck working a help desk, or worse, an admin related billet. Then add in weekends, holidays, and vacation time. We did the math out here in Japan where most single folks only stay for 1 year and out of 365 days, we only get 142 days of work out of someone. Unless they are spending their free time keeping up with the industry, they are rapidly growing into an NCO who knows just enough to bullshit his way past any problem, but not actually solve it.
Senior enlisted are even worse. The junior enlisted who are legitimate geeks almost always spend their 4 years focussing on their own education, often during work hours playing with production servers. After they have pissed everyone off by bringing the exchange server down once every other month, they have learned enough to get certified and get out for a "real job". This produces holes in the ranks which are often filled by senior enlisted from other job fields who have to find an open MOS, or get out. My last two comm chiefs were both infantry up to the rank of Sergeant. Of course a few good geeks who love being Marines stay around and generally become the Miracle workers of their commands, but for the most part, the quality of service garnered is grossly lacking. Hopefully, my description of the system is evidence that it is not the people's fault.
NMCI brings a small ray of hope in just getting a level of corporate knowledge. I don't know how many times I've called the server farm to hear, "Cpl Smith is the database guy, but He's on deployment until next month."
Here is an example of how the general level of inexperience hurts. The Blaster Virus attacks via DCOM RPC calls on port 135. The Base networking solution was to simply scan all computers for activity on that port and shut down any subnets that had activity. HELLO!!, port 135 is one of the key ports that NETBIOS communicates over which is a legitimate service. We've spent the past 3 days responding to reports that computer X has the virus only to find the machine clean. I haven't even begun to add up the lost man-hours as a result of NETWORK managers not understanding BASIC NETWORK protocols.
Don't even get me started on the complete lack of UNIX knowledge and support.
I could also rant on the officer side, but it boils down to the same thing....too many distractions to keep up with modern IT and not enough education/background to rapidly grasp the information. To a certain extent, the Marine Corps has hired civillians to manage the Enterprise and we do have one of the most stable and secure Nets in the DOD, but the system could be so much better if IT staffing was completely re-engineered.
The flip side of course, is that Network manager is capable of taking the network into a forward environment and competently defend it as a riflemen. The last time I saw members of the AF and Navy with guns, it scared me.
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:2, Informative)
You remind me of an experience I had with the Navy about 9 years ago. I'm 27 now, but when I was 18 I was pretty dead set on joining the Air Force through the best ROTC, USAFA, or other OTS school that would take me. At some point in my Senior year of high school, my mother had the bright idea to invite a couple of Navy recruiters over to our house to talk to me about the Navy. (I had never mentioned the Navy, so I still have no
Amen (Score:2)
I was a 3361 back when we had those (that's running the mess hall and field mess db's), and once they got rid of that MOS they made me a 4066 (no training, mind you; just said "now you're small computer systems").
So, I wound up at GPAC for 1FSSG being the ONLY person who knew the first thing about fixing a computer (I don't know what most of you 40**'s do out in 29 Stumps, but the kids lately don't seem to learn jack about computers). The senior enlisted are usually either former grunts who would have been
Not in the Corps (Score:4, Interesting)
As Fr0mZer0 pointed out, our biggest problem is high turnover in critical MOS's - and computer-related fields are some of the worst.
Another problem we face is worthless systems or infrastructures pushed down on us from the Department of the Navy because the Navy wants some new whiz-bang, e.g. NMCI (don't get me started on that piece of monkey-shit).
I don't think asking people to do something outside of their degrees is a problem for two reasons. First, spreading your wings is what being an officer is all about. Second, you're there to lead - not be the technical expert. If you need technical expertise, that's what your senior enlisted are for and anything beyond them can be contracted out.
I don't know what the ratio of combat support vs combart arms forces are, but rest assured that they are much lower in the Corps, just as the officer vs enlisted ratio is. Besides, in the Marines, we're all riflemen anyways.
Re:Not in the Corps (Score:2)
No wonder the military systems are such a mess. You just described the archtypical manager. In the IT world you need technical expertise along with the ability to make important decisions, if the systems are to be utilized in an efficient fashion. What you are d
You show much wisdom (Score:2)
You are correct about OPR/EPRs... I was frankly embarassed when I read my first one. I went to my supervisor and told him "none of this stuff is true. I did my job... I'm pretty good at my job... but don't make it into something it's not." It's ridiculous that you have to go to such lengths, the flowery language, the embellishment, just to get promoted. That whole corrupt "look at me!!" self-promotion thing in the military drove me cr
Re:There's lots of IT... but... (Score:2)
Make computers your hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
Then play with computers in your spare time.
You will have more money, more time to spend on your hobby, and you won't get burned out on technology because of idiotic managers and other riff raff dictating to you.
You will be the idiotic manager. And much happier for being it.
Re:Make computers your hobby (Score:4, Interesting)
If I were an MBA, I'd go home and want to forget about work. I'd dread going in the morning. I'd have gobs of money to spend on distracting myself from my horrible job with all sorts of expensive toys and drug addictions, but that's not exactly what I'd consider ideal.
Hopefully, I'll be fortunate enough to never have a job I want to retire from. Not because I can't, but because its far more fun that sitting around playing golf or motoring around in a yacht and eating dinner at 4:30 in the afternoon.
no worse (Score:3, Insightful)
Military Intelligence (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Military Intelligence (Score:2, Insightful)
The military is always at the forefront of technology...
Unisys (yes, the GIF people) mainframes running COBOL are the forefront of technology?
Maybe I should get a new job.
Re:Military Intelligence (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Military Intelligence (Score:2)
I was USAF for 14 years, 4 of them as a Computer Operator, and I never saw a single system that was less than 3 years old. In fact the majority of them are signifcantly older than that.
The military isn't about having the newest, the fastest, and the most powerful. It's about stability (so why its so M
declassify? (Score:2)
yeah as if they will declassify that info
IT and the DoD (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've read about system purchasing for the combat arms and aviation the following seems to be important to the DoD when it comes to computing technology.
1. Robustness is important
2. There is growing motivation to buy common systems for all the branches (including Coast Guard) rather than have many specialized systems.
3. Anything you sell the DoD today you have to support for at least 15 years, that includes CPUs like the PowerPC and IA. The new JSF, F-22 and Super Hornet are using Cat-5 and PowerPC chips (in the 132-400 MHz range IIRC) to power the flight computers and to connect systems and buses.
I think the move towards Microsoft isn't so much of a whoring out to MS, as it's a decision based on the fact that MS will be there in 15 years.
Re:IT and the DoD (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, then you've got some genius that discovers he can get a lot more money to spend on his network if he declares it a 'weapons system.' That's right, the network carrying all of the spam and pr0n all over the base is now a weapons system, and has to be treated as such.
Re:IT and the DoD (Score:2)
push ups vs career options (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:push ups vs career options (Score:5, Informative)
If you want IT, go with the Air Force. If any of my nephews decide to join the service, I will strongly counsel them to go in the Air Force instead of the Amry (where I spent 7 years).
I agree. I just finished my third year in the U.S. Chair Force and do not regret it. The pay sucks, but...
Check out the Defense Finance and Accounting Service [dfas.mil] for pay information. I am a three year E-4, so I make roughly $23,000 per year with food allowance, but I also get 100% free housing and utilities on base. I.e. no rent, no mortgage, no electricity bills, and I do not pay sales tax at the base exchange or liquor store (also no sin tax).
Of course, in return, I have to work. But in my job I probably will never go to a combat zone. The farthest I deploy is Atlanta or Washington, DC, for training.
Re:push ups vs career options (Score:2)
Re:push ups vs career options (Score:3, Informative)
Air Force is good if what you're looking for is "military light", without too much of that pesky discipline. Marine Corps is good if you want the discipline without too many of those pesky marketable job skills. Can't say much about the Navy, as I was Army also and pretty much only worked with Air Force and Marine Corps. Now
Re:push ups vs career options (Score:2)
Well, I can't speak for the guys you work for, but I know I have, and know how to use it too. Though I have to say, it wasn't the airforce, but a brittish foriegn exchange student, that taught me how to really shine shoes, but I can put a shine on my shoes you could use to signal planes with. And I'm talking standard issue low quaters none of these pat
Re:push ups vs career options (Score:2)
Guys I worked WITH. Me work FOR the Air Force? Gack! Fightin' words!
But yeah, I learned how to shine from an ancient retired Marine Corps
Not as much of a gate as you might think... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not as much of a gate as you might think... (Score:2)
It's certainly possible things have changed dramatically in the last three years, but when I left in 2000 the average grocery store had a more robust and better designed IT setup.
Our bradley company had four laptops. The Company Commander and First Sergent each had top of the line Dells with Windows NT. The Supply Sergeant and Arms Room NCO each had an old crufty Win95 laptop to run their DOS based supply/arms-room tracking softwa
LOTS! (Score:5, Informative)
By far, however, the biggest thing you can get while you're in the military is a security clearance, which opens you up to the IT contracting jobs after you get out. It seems like two-thirds of the IT jobs around here require a clearance before you can even be considered (and I don't have one...
Re:LOTS! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:LOTS! (Score:4, Interesting)
And forget seeing your recruiter. If you're in the LA area, see me first (org.waddingham@cory). I'll make sure you get what you want, not what the recruiter has on his quota list. Remember the one thing the US military and Al Queda have in common: our recruiters lied to us, too.
Re:LOTS! (Score:2)
I have a friend in the Navy Reserves taht's an M5 (E5?) and does sysadmin work for EROS. Might that be pull?
Re:LOTS! (Score:3, Interesting)
With all this in mind, anyone who's a regu
Re:LOTS! (Score:2)
Opening! (Score:5, Funny)
OPENING: Surveillance and Information Awareness Specialist
Department: Ministry of Love
Qualifications:
- Minimum 5 years experience neural implantation
- Minimum 4 years experience xenobiology
- Flexibility with surgical itentity alteration
- Prior experience with polygraphs
- Ideological suitability, to be determined by examination
- Familiarity with ECHELON preferred
Re:Opening! (Score:5, Funny)
- Minimum 5 years experience neural implantation
- Minimum 4 years experience xenobiology
Awww, man! It's so frustrating! Here I am with 3 years of experience in neural implantation and xenobiology, but all the low-level jobs have been outsourced to India.
Join the military (Score:5, Funny)
Use interesting computers
Then blow them up!
Which? (Score:2, Funny)
Just my thoughts .... (Score:2)
How bout we hear from those in the field that can give us a idea of what it is like behind the other side of the heavily armed gate?
Well, the gate really is not that heavily armed :-)
Considering that almost the entire US military runs on MS software, with the possible exception of some research labs and few places here and there, like intel units, that run Unix, there are tons of IT opportunities. I forget what the ratio is, but I have been assigned to some units where the sysadmin-to-user ratio was p
Re:Just my thoughts .... (Score:2)
What makes you think intel uses *nix?
How about assignments to three different intel units ranging from a couple of hundred personnel to one with about 3000 personnel, each with only a handful of Windows machines (mostly for formflow and the few admin folks), everything else running on Sun SPARC/Ultra, and SGI.
As far as user/admin ratio goes, at my last assignment I was part of a 60 airman Help Desk that administered a Windows 2K hosted LAN to over 30,000 users. How's that for a ratio?
So, you're say
I'm in gov't IT (Score:2, Insightful)
Hear from them? (Score:2, Funny)
Don't bother... (Score:5, Insightful)
90% of the good tech-based jobs in the government sector are performed by civilian contractors. The other 10% are generally far, far behind closed doors, and you'd never even know where to look for them unless you're already "in the know."
In the military, at least, the "401k" plan consists of two easy steps: #1 work for us for 20 years. #2 get 50% of your base pay at the 20 year point for life. There is NO middle ground - you leave before 20, you get ZE-freaking-RO. Sure, the promise of a paycheck for life is a nice thought, but the 20 years of bullshit that you'll have to endure is (IMO) hardly worth it.
Again, in the military there is next to no inspiration to perform well. Unless you royally screw the pooch, you WILL get promoted. (Even printing out porn on a
I've been on both sides of this - govvie and contractor. I can honestly say that I've done more valuable work in just a few months than I did in the 10 years spent in the federal employ. Don't do it unless it's your last option, and for certain, don't fall into the "we give you good komputter and teknichul skilz" trap - it's a lie, lie, lie.
Re:Don't bother... (Score:5, Informative)
I used to wear a blue suit and fix computers, I had enough after 4 years. There is no good reason for anybody who knows computers to be in the military. Any good jobs that did exist in the past have been replaced by contractors (or are, as you said, behind closed doors). They teach you nothing in the schools, most everything I knew, I knew before the air force. It's a really degrading experience to have to fix problems created by incompetent co workers, while getting no recognition, and the same pay as a bus driver. I lost track of the number of times I fixed problems created by civilians or officers "more qualified" than me, making 3 times as much as me. Don't even get me started on the differences between career fields and their SRBs (bonus for signing away a few years of your life). Lets just say somebody who can do board level repair, and teaches operation skills, gets half the bonus of an operator who can't find an any key.
Not to mention NO room for fast advancement. The only way to move on to bigger and better things is to go officer. That means life as a captain if you can stay technical. If you stay enlisted you'll need to deal with things unrelated to computers, or really low level work. Once you pass staff (only takes about 5 years) you'll stop working on computers and start supervising more people with 6 months of training in how to pull a board. Expect to spend 50% or more of your career away from your family as well. Ops tempo is crazy right now, and it's getting worse. Bush and co will run you ragged for shit pay.
Rant over. I've been out for a year, and took a huge raise to work in the civilian sector. I just got an offer to go back as a contractor for another huge raise (a clearance helps). Not one day goes by I don't regret getting out.
after 6 years in the USAF... (Score:2)
Don't even get me started on the differences between career fields and their SRBs (bonus for signing away a few years of your life).
For those of you watching at home, SRB = Selective Re-enlistment Bonus. This is money given to those in high-demand (and high-turnover) positions. When I got out I turned down an SRB of 3, meaning the bonus would be (3 times $figure times the # of years on the re-enlistment). 3 is quite high re: the SRB; it was a nice chunk of change for a lowly enlisted guy - about $22
Re:Don't bother... (Score:2, Informative)
Again, in the military there is next to no inspiration to perform well.
Good lord, you are so full of shit. There are plenty of reasons to work hard in the military. Faster promotion and choice assignments in better locations come to mind, not to mention official and unofficial commendations from your superiors. In terms of employee recognition, the only real difference between the military and civilian worlds is mone
good jobs, good training (Score:5, Interesting)
I was an electronics tech for the Navy. Did maintenance on comm gear and other electronic equipment. Went through a variety of schools. I feel the education is very good and the hands on experience is great. I worked with a variety of test equipment, receivers, transmitters, communication gear, etc.
When I was in, the most technologically advanced jobs were CTM (Crypto Tech Maintenance), ET (Electronics Tech), DS (Data Systems), among others (more specialized).
One individual I met while in was a Senior Chief ET at Treasure Island. As far as I know, he was one of the people to first develop laser listening devices for civilian purchase, or at least one of the first that I've heard of. I didn't see a working model, but he explained what it was and how it worked to me.
At yet another installation, I met a group of Navy Petty Officers and Air Force Sgt's that were developing a means to render video to CD, at the time, it wasn't common place (I hadn't even heard of the technology at the time) to find video on CD's.
There's many "cutting edge" tech gadgets being used in the .mil, of course these are the ones you never hear about until they're released to civilian use.
It's like the old story about the guy that invented the first "radar gun" for highway patrolmen, he also invented the first "radar detector" for civilians. :-)
Word from the ranks (Score:2, Funny)
That's because I know enough to send him links to patches when necessary. He patches his office, it keeps working.
Just talked tonight; I told him that he should fix me up with a phat DoD contract. He said "Do you really want to work and live in Detroit?" Apparently the nearest IP dept is near Gratiot, and downt
I have mod points, but can't pass this up... (Score:2)
--- ** ---
"How do you work this damn thing!"
Still cracks me up thinking about it.
IT in the armed forces (Score:3, Informative)
The Navy has a separate IT rate so it is available as a specialty.
The DoD's IT dept (Score:2, Informative)
Wireless in Iraq (Score:2)
A guy that posts on a car forum I admin has posted a few times while he's been in Iraq. Just yesterday he posted that he's getting his access through a "Linksys WRT54G, with some kind of booster attached." Says his speeds are about the same as dialup at home.. "all traffic is going over sat., including DSN telephone service, so they have the internet bandwidth capped pretty low." He's an MP, but has just said that he's "near" Baghdad and has been shot at..
I guess someone over kno
Too much turnover (Score:4, Informative)
From what we see at the base level, it looks like the Air Force has some smart people, at least down to the major command level. They've got lots of great ideas on things like enterprise network consolidation and PKI, but there's a huge disconnect between that level of planning and the implementation level where we're at. We get directives like 'start using Common Access Cards for website authentication', but they can't tell us how to do it. Oh, they sent me a link to someone else's site that describes linking client certificates to domain accounts. No problem, I'll just call up the 1,000 or so users on that website, have them export their certificates, and spend the next month or two entering data!
But back to the original topic. If you're interested in IT in the military, don't bother. Go apply at SAIC or CSC or any of a hundred other contractors.
Bottom line: Military pay stinks. You have no guarantee of any particular job. Hardly anyone stays in one place more than two years, and anyone lucky enough to get training that's worth anything doesn't re-enlist because they can make three times more money on the outside, and still be underpaid.
Of course, this only goes for enlisted folks. Maybe it's different with the officers. I wouldn't count on it, though.
(For what it's worth, I enlisted. It's not a good career move if IT's what you're after, but it's a guaranteed job, and a respectable one. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from joining the service, just don't expect to be doing anything exciting in IT if you do!)
Re:Too much turnover (Score:2, Interesting)
I dont' know about US (Score:2)
The closest I know has his family working for the Government for three generations and has no criminal records among their closer relatives AND close friends.
So, your academic qualifications are minor issue here.
Ask Slashdot (Score:2)
Ooh, I love telling this story... (Score:2)
In the last Marine squadron I was attached to, there were at least four separate IT departments I had to deal with to get my work done. First, there were the people that ran the NALCOMIS system, an ancient and extremely flaky database used for tracking aircraft maintenance. (Its
Re:Ooh, I love telling this story... (Score:2)
Hey, I just did what they told me.
You want to know what's behind that gate? (Score:5, Informative)
1) Some big wig about a decade ago (you do the math) decided that it would be a good idea to start running the military like a business. So, he decided that instead of focusing on training the troops he would hire contractors and civilians to replace troops on the pretense that it was cheaper and would provide better service. When it was clearly proven and accepted that neither of these were the case they used the excuse that they're "freeing us up" for more combat-oriented positions. Well they sure are spending a lot of money on "freeing us up" and there aren't many contractors out there (in my personal experience) who'll work the same shifts we often do.
2) Let me tell you a little bit about military career training in the USAF. Before I begin, this is not a complaint but a straight portrayl of what it is. First, you go to Basic Military Training (BMT) at Lackland AFB in San Antonio for six weeks or so. That's all well and good and then you're sent to your tech school. For most IT career feilds that happens to be Keesler AFB, MI. There you go through a course that is not only taught by voluntold instructors, but is extremely outdated and poorly presented. It's divided up into various blocks, each block having a certain instructor with a certain set of slides. Many of these slides are extremely dull and feature the same monotonous background over and over and over again. I've been out of Keesler for over two years now and I still have nightmares about the slides with the light blue backgrounds and plain Times New Roman font. Anyway, the material, though not effectively taught, is simple and easy for most to learn. All well and good right? Well, not really. You see at the end of each block you take a test. These tests are written by I beleive a Senior NCO (Sargent for you civilians) who probably made up the CDCs (see below) or what have you as well. This individual received no training on how to write a test. All the tests are multiple guess however, in my experience, they have no actual bearing on the individual's knowledge of the material. Your level of comprehension in no way equates to your score on any of the these tests. This is such a prevelant phenomena that there is a well known saying in the AF explaining our tests: "There's four possible answers. Two of them are wrong. One of them is right. Then there's the AF answer." When I went through Keesler I went through a course that had been used for six years. I was taught 98 and NT. My class was the first class in that courses history to graduate without anyone flunking out of it. I've been told that the course has recently been rewritten but personally I don't hold much faith.
Well, for argument's sake, lets say you make it out of Tech School and arrive at your first duty station. Well you haven't really learned much yet have you? How can you progress further in your career knowledge you ask? Your answer: Career Development Courses, or CDCs for short. These are a series of manuals written by a senior NCO in the career feild who again is usually voluntold for this and receives no training on how to write a manual. Rather than describe the entire horrid process of testing on CDCs I would like to describe for you my personal experience with the 3C0
Re:You want to know what's behind that gate? (Score:3, Informative)
The CDC has also been recently updated, and I'm one of the first groups to be on it. The experience has been.... Unique. They've found an interesti
Re:You want to know what's behind that gate? (Score:2, Interesting)
I work at a deployed location, and here we have only one contractor, and I work as the Net
Re:You want to know what's behind that gate? (Score:2, Insightful)
Voluntold?! :) LOL. Oh, that is soooo true.
Former 3C0X2 here (Communications-Computer Systems Programmer - at least when I was in) and everything you said is just as applicable.
I wasted^H^H^H^H^H^Hspent nearly 10 years of my life in the USAF and will probably regret it for the remaining years. What a waste of
USAF Enlisted Culture (Score:2)
Sometimes it's rather odd how simular things are in that environment.
Oh - and I w
Re:You want to know what's behind that gate? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know if you'll see this reply, given that it's a couple days after your initial post. Mostly, I'm curious: if you could do anything you wanted to change the curriculum or the training methods, what would you do? With what would you replace CDCs, and what sort of material would you teach in the tech school classrooms?
I know several of the training instructors who teach the computer programming course at Keesler. Their purpose is not to teach programming languages, but rather, programming concep
I'd Say Horrible (Score:2)
Also the move to include COTS based equipment has completely removed any EMP hardening that the "Old" equipment had which while I was in the service my vocality on the matter was largely ignored on the basis that nuclear war was not reguarded as a likely scenario anymore with "most" countries we'd be at war with. However they dont realize that a nuclear weapon is not the only way to generate EMP that co
Personally not touching this with a ten foot pole (Score:2)
So is there opportunity? Sure. Will I take it? NOT FOR A MILLION DOLLARS.
Air Force AFSC 3C0X1 (Score:3, Interesting)
I also spent 6 months in computer security. It was interesting, but basically all we did after the schooling was make sure base unclassified systems were "compliant." It was a bogus check and a real waste of time, since we weren't granted access to the systems in question. We basically had to take the owner's word on whether they installed all the patches, etc.
The nice thing is that I spent the down time learning perl, php, mysql, etc., and now I've got a good web development job. But most people there weren't so motivated (and thus, are still in and making $1500/month gross).
I also spent 4 months in England doing network support. It was the most fun I had during those 6 months.
So in short, the training was bad, the job was bad, and virtually nobody in my squadron knew wtf they were talking about. I guess that's why the squadron was decommissioned a few years ago!
I think they outsourced everything to civilian contractors (except the 24 hour comm center, of course!).
Defence departments usually outsource (Score:2, Informative)
IT Training in the Military (Score:3, Informative)
Every IT troop has to attend a technical school upon entering the career field and recently the Air Force implemented several certification programs for network professionals.
No, the DoD rarely pays for your certification (troops become marketable and tend to bail early...)
But the most amazing site is when you see a baby troop, full of awe and innovation... ready to spend the next four/six years as a sponge... then you remind him that Comm is a primary target >;^)
Would I recommend following in the footsteps?? Definitely!
Yes, you will have to dodge bullets occasionally (hopefully you will have more than one opportunity...). But your outlook on the 5-nines is much different when you realize that there's a life (or bunch of 'em) behind the number.
Yes, you will go where needed... there are only so many slots for server drivers. It's pretty competitive to get your foot in the door (Dude! You're gettin' the Helpdesk!! heheheheh). The training though is there for everyone in the career field, but the best part is the on-the-job training. No guessing from trumped-up resumes whether a troop can do the job or not, and for the most part, you're weened into the job by a more experienced administrator. Oh... and no fear of loosing your job to a junior Admin (unless of course your just that bad at it). Overall it's a pretty knowledge rich environment.
Would I recommend it for someone who's been in the business for a while?? Well... unless you don't mind carrying a gun and a keyboard, or being ordered to sweep the floor on Friday, or wearing the same colored clothes every work day, or having to shave and keep you hair in regulation, or taking a nice 3, 4 or maybe 12-month vacation in a country not of your choosing. It is the military after all... not your local university.
And no... I'm not a recruiter (heheheheheh)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:wha? (Score:4, Informative)
It's an interesting and occasionally frustrating mix of the fantastically cool and unbelieveably stupid/inane. A tech's ability to function under those circumstances is a definate PLUS when they're looking for a job after getting out of the military.
Early days of military Linux (Score:2)
I remember being impressed about how amazingly fast it was compared to similar Windows based (3.1 and 3.11 at the time) systems. Good to see things haven't changed. DoD Linux systems are probably still blowing the doors off of their Windows counterparts.
-- Gun
Active duty military experience (Score:3, Informative)
The hassles are similiar to the civilian world (boss calling at midnight on Sunday during a scheduled server upgrade demanding that her email be turned back on immediately, idiot users causing trojan/virus infestations, etc) plus the added bonus of deploying to places where you can get shot at. On the gripping hand, if you're not lined up for another job and have some bills to pay, a 4 year stint in the military can be a good place to grab a bunch of experience.
My advice if you're going to join the military - take the student loans, finish your degree, and go in as an officer. The difference in pay and personal freedom is worth almost any amount of suffering required to get that degree BEFORE seeing the recruiter. The hiring rate for ex-military personnel has been high for a fairly long time now and doesn't show any signs of weakening either.
For the most part, the military are -way- behind. (Score:2)
There are always exceptions; there are some gee-whiz things like sonar processing, signals anlysis, counterbattery radar, etc. But by and large, DoD/service branches are behind in general-purpose computing, and -way- behind in networking (with a few exceptions who're way ahead).
All the other advice about being a civilian con
A view from long term (retiree) side (Score:4, Informative)
First Do NOT join the military to get good training so you can get out and get a good job (whatever the field).
Join the military because you want to.
Having said that, here we go. Try to keep up, kids.
There is LOTS of good training in the military. IT included. A lot of it is old (tech school), but when you get to your actual base, you find yourself working with, and learning from, people who have done (whatever) for years. Been there, done that, got the tshirt.
My last base was Langley AFB, VA. Air Combat Command HQ. And also, the hub of computer ops for ACC. When I was there, I was in the ACC Computer Sys Squadron. A 300 person software shop. Every imaginable job related to s/w development. Configuration management, coding, project management, testing, db design, you name it.
A LOT of very professional people. And just as in any other large organization...some slackers.
However, the Langley Computer Sys Squadron is a CMM Level 3 organization. Not given out lightly. I was on the level 2 & 3 eval teams. We brought in some outside contractors, and a few of us active duty types were tasked as part of the eval team. And we passed. With zero command influence to get a good rating.
Yes, you do get to write code. Or yes, you do get to manage networks. Often, you get the chance to run things sooner than you would on the outside. For instance...a small team is deployed to set up a secure LAN somewhere. You get to be the NCO or junior officer team lead. Deal with it.
Training? I learned far more by myself, than was taught in tech school. But also learned a lot in OJT (on the job training). Each job is different. Some you can learn in class....some by doing. So what if tech school teaches concepts and tools a few years old? Once you get to your real base...you'll quickly be taught the actual tools you'll use. A single point classroom for a huge organization cannot possibly keep up with the quickly changing technologies. And....the miltary tends to keep things a few years old. Because it's proven to work. Cutting edge is for (currently) drone aircraft and the like. Otherwise, use what works.
What's inside the heavily armed gates? Basically, people going to work. Some jobs may be a little weird (loading missiles on F-15's), but all pretty much the same.
Again...let me reiterate point 1. Do not join the military to get good training to get a good job.
Join the military because you want to.
Any questions?
Yeah, totally. (Score:2)
Well, they pay enough now.
A friend of mine works "in a library" in Langley, VA. He doesn't touch sensitive information, he doesn't participate in "operations," (doesn't even know who does), and... his job still sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than the VBA coding I'm doing.
I guess this isn't much detail, but he certainly can't tell you any more than I have. Being a spook
A somewhat different experience (Score:2, Interesting)
You call that a shell script?? (Score:3, Funny)
Military and Academic Training (Score:2)
I know of hundreds of officers and enlisted men who have improved their career prospects through further graduate level education.
As a CISSP [isc2.org] I heard from one of the instructors that they do a lot of military and spook [isc2.org] work with the NSA.
surplus of information and terrorism (Score:2)
Inside Perspective - Not That Rosy (Score:5, Informative)
The Pay - Contrary to what other may say, the pay isn't horrible. I'm 24 and a SSgt, been in 6 years, I gross over 50K a year, most of it tax free. There's also the free health care, etc... I have a new car, a nice place to live, and lots in savings. Those who complain about how much they make in the military don't know how to budget (or when to stop having kids).
(10) Don't join the military because you want training and experience. All the good jobs are filled with civilians and you'll spend more time training on fire extinguisher saftey (or homosexual policy) than network operations. The training you do get will be of marginal quality. And of course, you never know if you might end up spending 2-3 years doing something non computer related (ex. driving a forklift). Sure you can never get fired, but you're much better off getting a job in the scary real world. History favours the bold (or something like that).
(12) Civilians. These people fall in to two groups:
Contractors - work for a company that has a contract with the governemnt (SAIC, Lockheed, etc...)
DOD Civilians - work directly for the government.
DOD civilians are good at heart but incompetent. Many of them are retired military and wanted additional income. They have minimal training and work inside of an impossible bureaucracy. It really isn't their fault.
I love Contractors. Most of them are knowledgeable and hard working. As opposed to everyone else in the system, they can actually lose their job. People complain that they are taking away all the good jobs. It's true, but they do them better. What do you expect when they do their job full time for years in a row instead of the military guy who spends half his day shining boots and writing EPR's as well as changing jobs ever 2-3 years. When I call the distant end to troubleshoot a problem, I want to be talking to a contractor, the only people I've met so far who know what a 3 way TCP handshake is (god bless them). If you absolutely must work for DOD, do it as a contractor.
(1) As noted above, your first tech training will take place at Keesler AFB. Most of the information is outdated and the teachers lack any real world experience, simply repeating what they have read. For instance, when I went though in 1997 my network training was in Windows for Workgroups and Novell. I was running windows 95 at home already and haven't seen a DOD IPX network since leaving Keesler. Hardware training was on 386's running DOS something or other. I was running a cheap Pentium at home. In the end tech school was a waste for people with any prior experience but usefull for those still learning about HD's, IDE Cables, and Motherboards.
(2) After leaving tech school and arriving at your first base, you will start your CDC's (Career Development Course). OUtdated and overgereal are the key words. In 98 they told me that DOS was the most popular OS, thicknet was A-OK, and the motherboard is the green thing at the bottom of the case. They are also riddled with errors.
(3) During your first year or so at your new base you won't get much real experience. There is alot of meaningless work to do and not much good stuff. Those who have been there the longest will be doing the good stuff, you (as a new recruit) will be mowing lawns, sweeping floors, and picking up trash from the side of the road.
(4) If you are fotunate, you might get sent to some sort of in-house training. Usually this is where they sent one guy to a class and when he got back told him that he was going to be teaching it to other people. Who the teacher is depends as much on rank and name as it does knowledge. These classes are generally ok. The information is mostly current and you spend the whole day learning ithout distractions. You'll probably get a good foundation of IP addressing and Windows networks here but also some bad inf
Almost all USAF posts (Score:2)
My experience with IT in the military... (Score:2, Informative)
Then, a Master Sergent at Fort Sill noticed my technical ability w/ computers when I came back from
I'm not in the military... (Score:3, Interesting)
We have legit high tech. On a simplistic level, my group (which does communication technologies) uses about 1/3 1/3 1/3 linux/Mac/MS in our offices. Oh -- on gigabit. Advanced hardware, software, and scientific equipment abounds.
There's plenty of advanced technology in the lab, but it doesn't make it out to the field. Why? Maybe there are issues in supply chain, environment, training, power availability, cost, etc. I have no idea.
Do consider that more advanced systems are often more expensive, more complex to roll out, and more fragile. That doesn't mean that our boys overseas should be using Atari 2600s to manage the theatre, but an organization as large, multifaceted, and cautious as the military is bound to be slow to upgrade.
Government Contracting (Score:2)
So far (I've only been with this company for a short while yet) everything I've seen leans to the government contracting things like IT work out, and it seems to be a good idea. The contract companies are generally better staffed and equipped to manage the
Marines (Score:2)
Air Force Perspective (Score:2, Informative)
I tried to get into IT with armed forces... (Score:3, Informative)
Despite 99th percentile ASVAB scores in all categories(!), the three recruiters I spoke to basically said that IT type positions were all (or mostly) contracted to private corps, and therefore there wasn't really any chance for me to avoid being a front line grunt/target through military programs, only through private-sector work.
Needless to say, I didn't join the army.
Has this situation changed significantly?
-dave-
Poor Training, Poor Pay, But What An Experience! (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, here is what happened. I left on Feb 1st. Basic Training was, well, physically hard but I made it through. Next, I go to AIT (Advanced Individual Training) at Fort Gordon, Ga. By week 3 of training, they had me take a test and quickly bumped me up to the last 4 weeks of training because I was correcting some of the instructors (and turned out to be right).
Having gotten done with AIT in 7 weeks instead of 6 months, I got to go to Airborne School and earn my jumpwings. So, there it was, Labor Day and I was showing up at Fort Bragg, NC assigned to the 82nd Airborne. They found out what I could do with computers and immediately sent me to headquarters. I ended up a database programmer for a year. I sat at a desk writing code for $15k a year while I had to work with (and often provide instruction to) government employees earning three or even five times as much.
Finally, in 1990, I got sent down to the 313th MI Bn and got to actually do stuff in the field that involved computers, radios, etc. with the intelligence guys and gals. Desert Storm was a hoot and I felt like I made a difference.
But when it came time to re-enlist, I realized that I had learned NOTHING in the Army that I had not: (1) brought in with me and (2) improved on my own by self-learning.
I left the military, got a civilian job and was soon making 4 times as much money and I never had to salute anyone. =)
If you know absolutely nothing about IT, you will learn something in the Army. You will also leave the military with some experience on your resume and possibly a security clearance (very valuable right now).
But since you are already reading Slashdot, there is probably nothing in terms of IT skills or money to be gained in the military (though I enjoy knowing that I can kill out to 200+ meters with almost any decent rifle with a good caliber).
That having been said, I still am proud that I helped pay for the price of Freedom in America (even if John Ashcroft is taking it away) and that I served something bigger than myself in my formative years. So while I learned very little in terms of IT, the experience I gained in life has been priceless.
I'm an A-76 (Score:3, Informative)
Also, tomorrow Washington, D.C. is closed for the day, because we are going to get hit by a hurricane. I will have to take a vacation day or two while the Feds (the civil service folk) probably get to take catastrophe leave or telecommute.
My commute is 1/2 hour on reasonably clean and air conditioned Metro trains, although the weather here sucks. My last job was in SoCal where the weather is perfect and you had to drive 3 hours a day on clogged freeways to commute 15 miles.
I was never in the military, and I am fortunate indeed to have one of the 3 or 4 gummint jobs that doesn't require a security clearance. More than 1,000,000 (!) DC area jobs -do- require a clearance just to get in the door to the job interview, and clearances are impossible to get unless you already have one.
The clearance people are said to care a whole lot about numerous categories of completely mindless bullshit, never mind that the spies they manage to catch (e.g. that Hansen dude who betrayed all the FBI secrets) tend to be straight-arrow squares from the Knights of Columbus. It is said that the jobs become more stressful the higher the clearance you have, but how the fsck would I know.
Re:well (Score:2)
Re:microsoft (Score:4, Funny)
What? Like in flight, Mach-2 rebooting? bah! Back in my day, we had to do barrel-rolls to empty out the carbs! And pop the clutch just to get it off the ground! You youngins have it sooooo easy!
Damn, we didn't even have helmets, just eatin' bowls...on our heads!