Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Hardware Technology

Dealing with Outdated Automotive Software? 156

Posted by Cliff from the artificial-obsolescence dept.
Jan Hendrik Montag asks: "My car mechanics had problems to fix a problem in electronic motor management with my 14 yr old Audi. That was not too surprising. But as my mechanic consulted a Volkswagen/Audi-company, they received the answer, that my car is too old and they don't have the appropriate devices and software to read my cars' mind. I just wonder, what will happen in 20 or 30 years to then-vintage-cars from today? Shouldn't there be a necessity to declare old car-software and diagnostic devices open-source just to make sure a collector then can repair his/her car just as it is possible to repair an old car from the 60's? Or will those cars be doomed in case of failure? What would be a solution?"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Dealing with Outdated Automotive Software? More

Dealing with Outdated Automotive Software?

Comments Filter:

  • OS Cars? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Ricwot ( 632038 )
    I've got a linux V6 in the garage

    it's been running for 3 years without a service

  • It would be nice, but... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It would be nice, but just because people depend on it doesn't mean that people are going to support or open source software. I'm not sure why car companies would care about their consumers enough to be any different.

  • Necessary? not really (Score:5, Informative)

    by Grab ( 126025 ) on Sunday November 09, 2003 @09:41PM (#7431295) Homepage
    There's no great secret to controlling an engine, so I don't see the point. If we want to think about this in computer terms, the engine controller is comparable to a text editor. Everyone knows what they do, there's a standard file format, no surprises. You don't like one, or the person maintaining it gives up, you use another one.

    For some time now, you have been able to buy generic engine controllers which just need calibrating to work with your car's engine (I know, I work for a company who makes them). These aftermarket ones used to be pretty dumb - time, emissions legislation and cheaper microcontrollers have made a big difference to this now though. In fact, it's not inconceivable that an aftermarket one would give better performance/economy/emissions than the old one, by having more accurate calculation, better modelling of engine behaviour, etc.

    Maybe there's someone who's desperate to use only original equipment, who will insist on using an engine controller with a dodgy old 8-bit micro when the cheapest Ford is coming off the production line with a 32-bit micro. I don't see the point in it myself. The engine controller doesn't change the character of the car (if calibrated to give a similar response to the old one), so replacing it shouldn't be an issue.

    Grab.
    • This might be true if all the computers are doing is controlling the engine. Now we are moving into drive by wire where the computer is doing more and more of the control. In the future it is going to be harder and harder to buy and drop in some off the shelf controller. There are even a lot of cars today that this is just not possible with.

      I've worked with engine control computers and I know it is just not that easy.

      -Mary
      • You'd be suprised at the ingenuity of "experimenters" though =D. I've built my own EFI computer using plans on the net, and the next one I'm working on will support cool stuff like ion sensing for ignition tuning and wideband oxygen sensor support. The current revision already has drivers for everything under the sun, and since it is based on an AVR processor, if I need more I/O I can just get a bigger chip (for the most part).

        An example of something that would be difficult to do now would be the BMW thr
      • drive by wire

        Nice idea, but I'll pass on this one. For example:

        "I see you are trying to stop, would you like some help ... GPF at 0xAAAAARRRRGGGGH!"
    • The problem is not in controlling the engine -- it's in reading the diagnostic codes from the controllers memory.

      Twenty five years ago it was possible to tune an engine without reference to a computer. All you needed was an RPM meter, a timing light, and spark plug gap gauge to do a basic tune-up. No longer.

      These days it's both easier and harder. You plug in a diagnostic computer and it tells you what needs to be adjusted and/or replaced, based on the codes it receives from the engine sensors. On the othe
      • Well, I work on old Citroens. Now, about 15 years ago, Citroen introduced the XM, which was their flagship model. It had more electronics in it than any other car at the time. Engine ECU, Hydractive suspension ECU, even the heater had an ECU (two if you went for aircon). These mostly live in a black plastic box, under the bonnet on the left hand side (looking at the front). From here, a bunch of two pin plugs with one brown wire emerge, to get connected to the Citroen diagnostic equipment. Plug it in,
      • This type of problem resulted in ODBII in the U.S., where all cars have to be compliant with the standard; and, a reader has to be made available to the general public. You may have to purchase a $150 device; but, it is available.
    • I look at the original question and wonder if perhaps it is too narrow in scope. What about ALL computer programs, and all data storage and management systems.

      A few years ago I was called in by a city to give an estimate and recommendations on a data management system. The systems at the time were document control packages, perfect for CAD and they were doing civil and architectual engineering so in theory we were a perfect fit. When I went to look at their historical data, however, it was paper archive

      • Maybe the question shouldn't be 'should the software in cars be open source?', maybe it should be 'should cars have software based controls in the first place?' Not just cars, but lots of things.

        You can say that, but the problem is that the internal combustion engine is a pretty sloppy device. There are clearances and component tolerances from the mass-air meter and fuel injectors at the intake to the HEGO sensors in the exhaust manifold, and everywhere in between.

        No two engines are exactly alike; hell,

      • I see your point, but what happens if there's a fire or natural disaster and all those records are destroyed? At least if its scanned they'll still have the information somewhere, hopefully backed up in a remote location.

        Surviving the test of time should be trivial, as long as open standards are used.
        • Trivial? You haven't thought about the problem too much.

          Do you know what the most powerful software-based property management system was 25 years ago? Or what platform/OS it ran on?

          The New York county that I live in has property records dating back to the mid 1600's preserved. NYC on the other hand, lost all sorts of records -- mostly tax stuff during 9/11.

          Open standards mean nothing if you have never heard of them.
      • maybe it should be 'should cars have software based controls in the first place?' Not just cars, but lots of things.

        Answer: yes, if you want the emissions, performance and fuel economy required for modern vehicles. It is impossible (not just difficult, literally impossible) to meet all three of these using a mechanical system, which is the reason no new car for 10 years has used a carbuerettor. There are now legal limits for emissions which cannot be met by a purely mechanical system.

        Regarding your pap
        • ...archiving data to CDs solves everything, does it? Including software that requires proprietary hardware and OS that will not be available in a few years? Archival strategy doesn't just mean burn it to the latest backup medium and hope for the best.
          • For head-removal-from arse, I suggest you think about data CDs for a minute more (which may be 59 seconds longer than you originally did). If I was suggesting archiving to some proprietary format like a ZipDisk, then fair enough. But this is a CD-R.

            The CD data format is is a published ISO standard, and the interface to a CD drive is also a published standard. The only "proprietary hardware" is in the implementation of those standards, to transfer data off the (standard) CD and across the (standard) elec
            • I do this kind of thing for a living, preserving data to FDA requirement standards, which might be 12 years after the patentable lifetime of a drug. Can you *guarantee* that you can get a 24x CD-ROM drive in 35 years? 100% sure? Willing to risk FDA 483 letters and be held personally liable?

              The format may be open and published, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to build an optical drive that'll read your media in the future any more than you could hook a wax cylinder of data up to your SAN now.

  • This info is generally readily available online or at the library. Especially older 80's stuff, where retrieving codes is simply a matter of grounding a certain wire, or connecting a test lead to a particular terminal and watching a light flash. Seldom on the old stuff do you actually need a "Scan Tool" to pull codes, although it makes life much easier.

  • Not built to last (Score:3, Informative)

    by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Sunday November 09, 2003 @09:56PM (#7431374) Journal
    Despite how well you think modern cars are built, and some of them are built very well, they simply aren't intended to last 20-30 years. If anything, they will force them out of the market by doing exactly what they did to you - stop supporting and making parts for them.

    As as a person who drives a car from the 60's ('64 Rambler Classic, specifically!), I can honestly say there is no way even an advanced home mechanic can fix their modern car as easily as that car... not the least reason being that most modern cars greet you with a rats nest of plastic and wires when you open the hood.

    With older cars, you open the hood to find an engine of all things! Hell, there's enough room to climb in there and sit next to it while you work!

    Anywho, I've heard stories of people sucessfully plugging their generic laptops into their car's computer and getting some useful data out of it. Unfortunately I don't have any sources :( (If I find some I'll let you know!)

    And yes, I agree that releasing software for outdated cars would be a Good Thing(tm), as it would make it that much easier for the average Joe to tinker should he be so inclined. Tinkering is seldom a bad thing!
    =Smidge=
    • I know a guy that's pretty good with Ford mass air flow systems. He can usually tell what sensor or component is bad just by listening to the engine, and if not, he knows how to use the code reader. The problem is, he knows nothing about carburetors, and even less about ignitions that use points instead of electronic.
      • If the car won't meet emissions it can't be sold (there are recalls for that all the time).

        For the average mechanic, knowing about carburetors or points is a complete waste of time. No car has rolled off a high-volume assembly line with either in years, and even the distributor is going the way of the dodo. If he wants a job he learns about the stuff that comes into the shop every day, not the only-driven-on-Sundays classic that goes past his house a few times a year.

        I don't have a problem with cars that

        • For the average mechanic, knowing about carburetors or points is a complete waste of time. No car has rolled off a high-volume assembly line with either in years, and even the distributor is going the way of the dodo.

          Sadly, this is true, even for classics and exotics. Just last year, I had to wait *weeks* to get all the proper parts for a complete rebuild on the four Weber two-barrels that sit atop my Ferrari Dino 308gt4 - these parts simply did not exist in North America, and had to be shipped from Ital
          • Sadly, this is true, even for classics and exotics. Just last year, I had to wait *weeks* to get all the proper parts for a complete rebuild on the four Weber two-barrels that sit atop my Ferrari Dino 308gt4 - these parts simply did not exist in North America, and had to be shipped from Italy (presumably by oxen-powered paddle-wheel boat by way of Venezuela and Fiji...)

            That's odd; I haven't heard of any problems getting DCNF rebuild kits. They are sold on eBay all the time. Personally, I use Pierce Mani [piercemanifolds.com]
      • Erk. Yes, I know how that feels. I wasted half a day on a persistent incurable misfire on a car I'm restoring - 1979 Citroen GSA Pallas. No electronics to be seen anywhere (ok, maybe the rev counter and the stereo). Idles beautifully, doesn't rev above 4,000rpm (red line is 6,500). Long (long, long long long) story short, the ignition condenser was open circuit. I haven't worked on contact breaker ignition for *so* long that I'd basically forgotten about that. I was utterly convinced that it was a fu
        • I've been bitten by this so many times, I've put a electronic ignition kit on every one I come across. This has been with boats because for some unknown reason they had them for a long time after cars...
          • Aircraft engines (piston ones, not jets) still use good old-fashioned magnetos, you know...
            • I guess thats a matter of price vs. reliability. Somehow I don't beleive that paddle I keep in my boat would be effective in a plane! On the other hand, I'm quite satisfied with even the inexpensive electronic ignition kits. (For my applications!)
    • A Rambler? Oh joy. Lovely, well handling, safe vehicle. The average guy can do work on modern cars. It does require a bit of education. It probably helps to have a code reader and a shop manual, but is $200 for the pair too much to ask? IMHO, not if the trade off is traction control, ABS, air bags, AC, 28 mpg highway, and net horsepower from a V6 that is likely much higher than the net on even an S/C Rambler (been reading Hot Rod and Car Craft since I was 15, so I know the lingo and even the obscure models.
      • ...nd net horsepower from a V6 that is likely much higher than the net on even an S/C Rambler

        I dunno about MUCH, be yeah definately more. Bear in mind that my car has a naturally asperated straight-6, while the modern V6 it probably turbo charged and definately fuel injected. I never argued that more modern engines aren't more powerful/efficient! (Rambler puts out ~160hp, typical modern V6 is about 200-230 for larger cars)

        How much does AMC/Chrysler/DMX make off your Rambler? How much off of a PT Cruiser
    • It's a 77 VW bus. I've been told that the FI on air-cooled VWs is a bunch of transistors/resistors rather than an integrated circuit, so there is a company which will repair broken computers by replacing the bad parts. Since the individual pieces can be relatively easily identified, the "source" is openly available. However - my car is much roomier than an SUV, very dependable, only gets 20-24 MPH, and has a bed for use on those late nights at work but those are the sacrifices one makes when one owns a vehi

    • wow! (Score:2)

      by RMH101 ( 636144 )
      now *that* was +3 informative!

      Phrases like "Anywho, I've heard stories of people sucessfully plugging their generic laptops into their car's computer and getting some useful data out of it. Unfortunately I don't have any sources :( (If I find some I'll let you know!)" just make me glad I took the time to read it.

  • Get a second opinion. That car should be covered by OBD standards, so there should be at least some aftermarket solution. I have 2 rules:

    1. Never trust mechanics
    2. When someone tells me a certain mechanic can be trusted, refer to rule #1.

    They will rob you blind if given the slightest chance they can get away with it.

    IMO, late 70s to mid 80s automotive computers were crap. They were basically a computer controlled carburetor, with some timing adjustments. The EFI systems at the time were a little b

  • Heh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by smoondog ( 85133 ) on Sunday November 09, 2003 @10:06PM (#7431419)
    Find a better mechanic. I/my wife owns an 89 BMW 325i Conv. It is way cool, pretty fast, a lot of fun and cost less than $5k in very good condition (less than 100k california miles). We found that headaches are minimized if you find someone who is *truely* an expert in your car. At first we went to a mechanic to do some really minor work and everytime we took it back, something new was broken! Bad. (Mechanics will never admit fault for something like this, even if they fix it they act like they are doing you a favor) Anyway, find a good (very good) german mechanic. I'm willing to be a good vw mechanic may suffice, given the similarity of the makes, but not sure.

    14 years is not that old. These cars should still be very fixable. You don't need a new car, you need a new mechanic. Ask around.

    -Sean

    • Re:Heh (Score:1)

      by jebx ( 682934 )
      I think this highlights a large issue. What has happened is that more shops can't work on any car, they have to create a niche that they will work on because of the cost to have the diagnostic tools. I would be willing to bet that my Dad's shop could not fix this problem and would refer him to the dealer. I think that the mechanic should know the technology limits they have at their shop and not take a job that they are incapable of repairing. The cost of the scanner to get codes is exorbitant, and you

  • I just had a problem with my 1996 Cavalear. Long story short I knew it was an ignition problem so I replaced the spark plugs, then the spark plug wires. Neither of these fixed the problem and the next thing to replace was the coil pack and then the ignition module.

    Since I had just replace the wires I had found the coil packs and ignition modules we mounted in the dumbest palace...on the back of the engine, above the transmission! Now I know modern cars are packing the engine into a smaller and smaller

    • In my case, to get to the back 3 plugs ( V6 ) you have to pull the intake manafold off..

      Fun fun... a day job for what should be 10 mins.
      • Do you have one of the Cougar, Contour, or Mystique models with the 2.5L V6?

        Some people claim you have to do that on those models (I have a '99 Cougar), but you can do it without having to take off the intake manifold, I'm told. You just need a 6" socket extension.

        I have to do this on my car soon. I hope those claims are correct, although it wouldn't hurt to clean the manifold anyway.

        -RJ
        • Man, for the days when you could do that job in 10 mins with a single wrench.. from a standing position, and not even get dirty... now you cant even SEE 1/2 the belts.. and takes an act of god to change a o2 sensor...

          I hear newer versions have the battery only accessible thru the wheel-well.. have to take off the tire to get to it.. sheesh ( I know the neons do that.. donno about my model thou, as they made it smaller, and I wont buy a new one )

          I think my next car will be a 1970... or ill just get out m
          • I know that there is a model of a Couger that the battery is only accessible from under the vehicle (saw this when my wife and I went shopping for a car once). I also know that on an older Mercedes convertable (hardtop) my brother-in-law had, the battery was in the trunk (!!!). My wife's Neon (97), the battery is up front, easily accessible (however, it will take an act of god to get the camshaft position sensor fixed, if it ever comes to that - fuel lines and vacuum hoses make it impossible to get to witho
      • Had the spark plugs replaced on my 96 Firebird T/A when the engine was rebuilt last year(dealer screwed up a repair, sealant broke loose and entered the engine, eventually seizing it. Took three months for Pontiac to get the engine rebuilt!)

        It's supposed to be a 6 hour job if you know what you're doing. Was far easier to replace them early(at 75,000 miles instead of 100,000) than wait.
    • "but since there was a ton of space in front of the engine, where a part that will fail several times in the lifetime of the car could have been mounted, it really pissed me off."

      The front of the engine is considered a lot more hostile than the back, and they moved the coils from the front to the back quite a long time ago because of the temperature shock (radiators and blowy stuff I like to call 'wind') and the occasional puddle that gets thrown up.

      The time I learned all about this was when my Ford Fie

  • How many options do you want? (Score:5, Informative)

    by R2.0 ( 532027 ) on Sunday November 09, 2003 @10:30PM (#7431516)
    #1: Your mechanic is full of shit. I believe current VAG dealer diagnostic tools analyze your year, and if the current ones don't, it's not like dealers just throw away older diagnotic tools.

    #2: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/
    Buy the diag tool yourself. Tell mechanic to get bent.

    #3: 1989 Audi? Might not have OBD-I, and the engine controllers back then didn't have a bunch of diagnostics. Sounds like you may have a lazy mechanic who doesn't want to take the time to actually diagnose your problem instead of plugging in a connector and charging you $90.

    #4: http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
    Megasquir t DIY Fuel injection controller. There are a shipload of Audi's running this, and the mailing list is quite friendly
    • I'll second the Ross-Tech VAG-Com. Don't have my own (yet), but I know a couple people with them, and it is really a great system (I own three VWs one OBD-I, one OBD-II, one 1983 mechanical injection), and can be a big help, and when the dealer charges $90 to hook up their machine, it pays itself off quickly.
  • Sounds like your trustworthy dealer is full of it. Go to any Advance, Super Trak, or Pep Boys (or NAPA, Mac, or Snap-On) and you should be able to find a universal reader, or a reader for your car. There's no reason your dealer can't do likewise. In addition, your local German car specialty shop should have several of these lying around.

    Further, auto computers do only a few rudimentary things. Control spark advance and fuel delivery curves. I'd have to question why the dealer has mechanics who can't make a

    • Re:Full of It (Score:2, Informative)

      by gmhowell ( 26755 )
      Here's one from a quick google for 'audi code scanner' [mainlineauto.com.au]. It covers back to 1988.
  • It would be called planned obsolescence.
  • Just like software nowadays, the car is licensed to you, you do not buy it. And if the manufacturer declares an End Of Life on your car, you need to upgrade to a new car. You *could* go with open-source cars, as long as you choose which of the 16 available steering wheels you want, and build it yourself.

  • Talk to this chap (Score:3, Informative)

    by gsx1400 ( 688606 ) on Monday November 10, 2003 @04:09AM (#7432633) Homepage
    I've owned several audis, including an '86 80 sport, a 1990 5cyl 100, and a 1995 S6. This guys website [sjmautotechnik.com] is full of useful stuff. He markets a kit for the palm pilot [palm.com] that should answer your needs [sjmautotechnik.com] Remember, far more energy is used, and more CO2 is produced in building a car than it will produce in its lifetime, so keeping old cars running is good for the environent!
    • Remember, far more energy is used, and more CO2 is produced in building a car than it will produce in its lifetime, so keeping old cars running is good for the environent!

      Actually.. this is only true if the car is built from virgin steel, which is happening less and less. Cars are heavily recycled. And while CO2 emmissions may be less, other "worse" pollutants are not. Cars older than 10 years have to abide by less strict emissions standards, and are often poorly maintained. The worst 10% of the cars
  • If you do need some pieces then either the local scrapheap or just look in the local newspaper for spares

    R.
  • You can get aftermarket ECU's that are programable to fit whatever you have to stick them on.

    Sure, they are a bit overkill for applications like that, but at least you DO have an option when your module goes belly-up...

  • car manufacturers go closed-source (Score:3, Interesting)

    by hubertf ( 124995 ) on Monday November 10, 2003 @10:37AM (#7433793) Homepage Journal
    Recently, I wanted to buy an el-cheapo mp3-cd-player for my rather new (2 years) Toyota Corolla. I had to find out that none of the models available in standard size would fit in there, and that my only option would be go buy what Toyota offers. Too bad they don't have _any_ mp3 devices available. And if so, they would not be as cheap as the ones in stores here.

    Needless to say, I'm pretty annoyed by that. :(

    - Hubert
    • http://www.crutchfield.com [crutchfield.com] makes adapters for everything. If you buy a headunit from them, and you tell them what kind of car you have, they send you the adapter for free.

      Very few vehicles today have standard sized radios, but there are adapters available for everything, and if you can't find one, you can always get something that is trunk mounted and beams over 88.1 or something along those lines.

      Also, don't forget to get a wiring harness adapter (unless you want to cut and crimp the wires yourself.

  • There will be no classics after 1985... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by brainthought ( 514423 ) on Monday November 10, 2003 @11:32AM (#7434108) Homepage
    It simple really, what will become of cars from today when they become classics. They simply won't.

    You see, cars like the '57 Chevy or the '68 Camero were unique, they only made so may and the ones around today were lovingly restore or maticulously cared for so that they exsist today. But it's not just that, those cars were made to last. That's why you still see a '38 DeSoto or a '42 Dodge Pick-up. It's also why you can go to a junkyard, buy and old Impala or Oldsmobile and restore it. There's parts out there and you can repair what you can't find. But, as cars went on, and companies wanted larger proffit dividens, and then came plastics...

    Nowdays cars aren't built to last, well, not last lifetimes. They're built to last until the payment book is done. Sure you have exceptions like Toyota Camary's or Honda Civic's that go on and on, but there's nothing unique to these cars. Their people movers, and that's it. I for one can't really imagine taking my kid, on a warm spring day, to an autoshow just to see a bunch of '92 - '96 Tercels or '87 - '91 Sentras.

    Then there's the plastics I mentioned. My last car was a '94 Chevy Cavlaier Wagon. It was mostly the same car as the '81 Chevy Celebrity, or the Oldsmobile Ferenza, or the Pontica Sunfire / J2000, or the Cadillac Cimmaron, or the Buick Skylark / Century. All of which had a nearly 15 year stint known as the General Motor's J-Body design. But it's not just GM. The Ford Taurus is the Mercury Sable, or the Ford Crown Victoria is the same as the Mercury Grand Marquee or something like that... It's not just American cars though, the Pontiac Vibe is also the same car as the Toyota Matrix... Which was the retool from the wagon variance of, you guessed it, the GM J-Body. The only diffrence between these cars is a plastic molded bummper or body panel. Strip away that and you have the same 2.2l I4 engine mounted to the same H3430 3 speed automatic front wheel drive system with front disc brake and optional rear wheel discs...

    But it goes beyond that, the materials used now days aren't even designed to last that long. A friend of mine has restored a 1985 Buick LeSabre. (GM H Body I believe, same thing as the Chevy Capris Classic for those keeping score.) A problem arose from when his coolant resevoir cracked and he had to replace it. General Motors changed the design to the resivoir in 1988 to make way for a redesign of the cruise control vacume system. So the part, even as a replacment part, was discontinued in 1991. The part itself was made of a sub-quality plastic that, after about 15 years becomes hard and brittle. So you can't go to a junkyard and buy another one off another Buick as, it too, will crack and brake. In the end, his only option was to use ducktape until the whole of the container rots and he has to make another container all together.

    I know I have harped on American cars alot, and I really do love them, but even the author's AUDI is not unique. Audi has for years traded engine and body parts and techniques with Volkswagon, so much so that alot of Audi's now have VW W8 engines, while VW itself builds three of it's cars on the same chassi. The Passat, New Bettle, and Jetta are, when you trear them down, all the same car...

    Oh well... Hopefully tennagers won't get ahold of too many Malibus or Impalas (the old ones, not this new crap) and enough will be spared 22" wheels and hydrolics that they will still be drivable in 20 years so that when I take my kid to a car show one day I can show them that, damnit, their used to be some nice cars. Some style that wasn't just an option package, that steel was fashioned into moving elegance, and cars of this caliber should not be messed with aside from the factory design, and that one time long ago, it was just wrong for Cadillac to make a pick-up.
    • It simple really, what will become of cars from today when they become classics. They simply won't.

      I agree with the cars you mentioned specifically, but you are wrong about the statement above. Not only are there going to be post 1985 classics, there will be more post 1985 classics than cars from the 30's-80's. Some of those cars are even going to be american. The viper, prowler and that new ford come to mind. Not my favorite cars, but there is definately a market for them. Imports also will have cl
      • Well, I do have to be honest here and say, I didn't even think about these cars, really because I never see them. I've always looked at the Prowler or the new GT-1 Mustang as more of a collectors car than a real car. People don't buy them to drive, they buy them to put in their garage and maybe just drive on weekends. And to me, this should not be what a classic car is, cars everyone drove and the common man could afford. To me, there's just something wrong with a $40k price tag on the Thunderbird. It's tak
        • To me, there's just something wrong with a $40k price tag on the Thunderbird.

          I read an article a while back that traced the history of the Corvette and basically arrived at this conclusion. The modern Corvette is now pretty much a mid-life crisis car for people who have worked long enough to afford it. Apparently, the Thunderbird is no different, now.

    • ...and from a few years before 1985. You see, there was this time period where American cars were absolute shit on wheels. GM made a V6 that blew after 85,000 miles, for example. Emissions legislation forced automakers to build these rediculous vacuum-powered pneumatic-computers onto their engines with 5,462 little hoses that would leak. This pissy little EGR valves would stick making these environmentally-friendly engines spew more crap into the air in one day than a unencumbered engine would do in a
      • Well, I choose 1985 because it seemed to be the year where everything stopped being remarkable. Look at just before 1985, in '81-'83 you have the DeLorean (a personal favorite of mine). There's the Datsun 280z, the old Toyota Celica Type R was still being made (though, not avaliable in the US), and you had those little Mercedes 2 door convertables, which I am not particularly fond of but people seem to love them. But in '84 Chrystler introduced the Caravan and everything seemed to change shortly after... Su

        • As far as SUV size goes, it appears that many auto insurance plans will go up to 11 or 12 thousand pounds gross weight. Give it a turbo diesel and 11 MPG, and it'll sell like hot cakes while allowing another 10% less traffic to fit on the roads increasing congestion, reducing visibility, and increasing the occurrance of little grannies getting run over by soccer moms while they were talking on the cell phone.
    • Nowdays cars aren't built to last, well, not last lifetimes. They're built to last until the payment book is done.

      My 1991 Audi 200 quattro 20v is kicking around just fine, and it's lasted through -my- loan payments too(I bought it at 6 years, 100k miles- it now has 190k). It can kick the crap out of most of the 50's/60's cars you mention- 0-60 in about 5.9 seconds flat my friend. 280hp and all wheel drive.

      Sure you have exceptions like Toyota Camary's or Honda Civic's that go on and on

      My '91 Audi's

    • No, there will be American classics...keep in mind the classics we value now like the Chevelle, Camaro, Mustang, Nova, Impala, Cornet/Super Bee, Roadrunner, Barracuda, Charger, Galaxie, Falcon, Ranchero, El Camino, and so on were all mass produced, popular cars. Everybody know an uncle, had father, brother, or grandpa that one...and everyone wanted one. That's what made them classic, everybody knew them and then they were tossed for the "next big thing" or when gas got too expensive. So, yes, there will
  • You're obviously having the work done by a dealer; who, has the up-to-date tools. They've either forgotten how to use the old tools or thrown them away. The answer by Audi is typical Sales nonsense where they're trying to convince you to upgrade by buying a new vehicle.

    The diagnostic tools are still available. The code information should be in one of the service manuals. Worst case: 1.) I'm sure someone on the web has decoded the interface (hacked it anyway) and has a solution. 2.) There are aftermark

  • Dear Slashdot... (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by dasunt ( 249686 )

    Dear Slashdot...

    My old Pentium 133mhz computer had some problems. I took it to a repair shop, but they said it was too old to work on and that nobody knew windows 95 anymore. What should I do?

    Find a better repair shop!

    Seriously, cars in the late 70's had primitive computer systems[1] - when something fails, you go to a mechanic that knows how to fix it. The electronics are pretty durable, so even if the part can't be bought new, something ripped from a junked vehicle should work. (I saw anoth

    • "The electronics are pretty durable, so even if the part can't be bought new, something ripped from a junked vehicle should work."

      Not all the time; the first generation of ECUs/management units were martyrs to stray spikes, undervoltage and overvoltage. The Ford 'Montego' was renowned for wiping the EPROMs because of piss-poor earthing in the engine bay.

      YMMV.

    • Wrong answer. Correct answer: Find a better Operating System! ;)
  • I believe that the EPA requires that cars sold in the US have a manual method of reading codes. On Hondas you push and hold some combination of buttons, and it blinks a sequence on the idiot lights that you can record and look up in a book.

    You can reset the codes by pulling the "memory" fuse for a few seconds (but have your CD player security code handy!)

    Haynes service manuals are pretty good at telling you how to do stuff like this without expensive equipment.

  • VAG-COM, other ways (Score:3, Informative)

    by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Monday November 10, 2003 @06:35PM (#7438259)

    VAG-COM works with the older Audis going back to about 1989 or so. You need a special Y adapter to adapt the ODB-II style plug; if you have the plugs, they're two or three multicolored, 2-pin connectors, usually in the driver's side footwell or in the fusebox. 1991 was the first year in which fault codes could be stored in memory, so if your model is before that, you'll need to leave the engine running or crank it to 'generate' a code.

    If your Audi is pre-1990 or so(you said 14 years yes?), run the car until the check light comes on or you see the problem; remove a spare fuse, plug the fuse into the top of the fuel pump relay for about 5 seconds and remove; the check engine light(engine block w/lightning bolt) will come on and blink a code of 4 digits, with a short pause between the digits; this will report all the codes and then repeat. Look up the codes at www.sjmautotechnik.com. Really really old Audis will either bounce the tachometer, or point it to different numbers in sequence to indicate the code.

    If the problem is a no-start, you should attempt to crank the engine for 15 seconds, LEAVE the ignition ON, and then do the code retrieval.

    You can also trigger an output test, which activates all the various eleectronic valves(there are many) in sequence.

    If you still need more help, sign on to the 'quattro' list at www.audifans.com- but do so in a few days, the site admin had a death in the family right after we had some data loss, and things are pretty messed up unfortunately; you can't post, and archives are missing. We'll be running within a week. Google has a fair bit of our 10+ years of archives in its cache, however.

    • VAG-COM works with the older Audis going back to about 1989 or so. You need a special Y adapter to adapt the ODB-II style plug

      Oh, I forgot- not only VAG-COM, but any diagnostic tool based on the VAG-155x series(I forget what the current model is, but the earliest model is the VAG-1551), which is as close as your nearest Audi OR VW dealer, will work. The dealership should have the necessary Y adapter since it's about $15-20, but may not if they're somewhat new and never had to deal with pre-ODB-II cars.

  • I think the worst problem you will actually encounter if asking a company to open its sources is the same as you see with M$. Why does M$ keeps launching the same programs just with a better look and just one or two really useful features? And why do they need an OS that does the same? And why do they stop supporting their old software? Because that's where they get their money from. Imagine you were a car company that wants to make money from every client you can. Then what would you do? Would you make dur
    • The 2003-series of Office is mostly rewritten from the ground up.

      Frontpage got a total rewrite to produce standards-compliant autogen code.

      Outlook got a complete rewrite in terms of its behavior, security controls, integration functions, etc.

      Word had a ton of new useful stuff added (machine translations between about a dozen languages, link to buy a human translation, complete dictionaries and thesauruses in several languages and texts.)

      and also integrated OCR and standard-compliant document-image-write
  • ...it's firmware, not software.
    -1, Pedantic. :) I know.
  • There is a company called AEM [aempower.com] That makes somethign called the EMS (Engine Management System)
    It's a $2000 drop-in ECU. With completel computer control and datalogging. A geeks dream!

    The thing is, t doesn't take much to control a car. Some PWM inputs and outputs, some flash, some ROM. Add some DACs and you have all the hardware you need. The EMS uses a 16/32 hybrid microcontroller. Nothing much. You basically have to adjust the PWN for fuel on throttle position and intake air volume, and throw a spark when

  • Try megasquirt (Score:3, Informative)

    by Greg151 ( 132824 ) on Tuesday November 11, 2003 @12:38PM (#7444912) Homepage Journal
    Hey, if you are up to it, you can build your own fuel and ignition management system. I am going to do this myself with my 65 barracuda. Here is link http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html Let me know what you think!

Slashdot Top Deals

Neutrinos have bad breadth.

Close