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Beyond Pay? 144

Posted by Cliff from the if-it-isn't-worth-it-find-another-job dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "I was wondering if Slashdot readers have encountered harassment in the workplace, and how they have dealt with it. In particular, when working for technology-based companies. Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't, to actual personal harassment in the work place by management staff. My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law."
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Beyond Pay? More

Beyond Pay?

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  • Well... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Berrik ( 632561 ) <gundamexodes@h[ ]ail.com ['otm' in gap]> on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:00AM (#8268697) Homepage
    At my age, my job choices are pretty much limited to the low end of things-- data entry, burger flipping, stocking shelves, and so forth.

    Granted, I don't get paid as much as most of you probably do, but I do have one thing going for me:

    If my boss treats me like crap, I can quit and find a job with a similar pay rate in pretty much the same day.

    Berrik

    • Age is no excuse (Score:3, Insightful)

      by MarcQuadra ( 129430 ) *
      How old are you? I'm 21 and I run all the Macs at a VERY prestigious school. I've been running tech aspects of private and public schools since I was about 10, and getting paid for it since I was 16.

      Never underestimate the education industry, a lot of the people at most schools are clueless, and it takes a young person to 'mold'to the inbred political culture.

      A good idea is to not mention age until you're hired, people at my current job thought I was in my mid to late twenties because of how I carried mys

      • Re:Age is no excuse (Score:5, Interesting)

        by macdaddy ( 38372 ) on Saturday February 14, 2004 @08:09PM (#8282750) Homepage Journal
        I turned 21 the very day I was offered a job as the netadm at one of our state universities. I remember that day well because my interview was the day before. The day of the offer was also the day that my apartment's AC went on the fritz and I ended up sleeping on a couch in another of our state university's campus library. Perfect timing for the beginning of July in my state. During my interview the average consensus was that I was in my late 20s. One gentleman guessed I was 36. They couldn't technically ask what my age was during the interview and I don't recall telling them. I'm sure some of them mentally pieced together a timeline and guessed my age.

        Youth has its advantages. The energy, eagerness, and willingness to learn are a few of youth's best traits. It's a threat to all those that don't posess youth or at the least nurture their inner youth. Those without youth (youthless?) are proned to resist change. They are much less open to new ideas. They are less willing to learn new things. All of these things that the youthless lack build what is perceived as a threat. In many cases the youthful out-think and out-work the youthless. The youthful don't try to create conflict but they are frustrated by the youthless that put a stop to all change. A few months ago I contemplated writing a book geared towards youth in the IT sector, based on my own experiences. Age was a major stumbling block at that employer. My youth was hard to accept for a few people, one in particular. That person had their better moments for sure. Unfortunately that person only seemed to take my advice when they needed something from me. It was a difficult time I most assuredly admit. It was a learning experience that I'm glad I received. It is also an situation that I will never fall prey to again.

        My advice to the article submitter is simple. Do not under any circumstances take any age-related crap off of anybody. You're an adult in a professional position doing a professional's job. They should respect you and you should respect they. Mutual respect between management and staff is something most institutions lack in this day and age. I feel this lack of respect is the reason employee loyalty and morale is at an all-time low. I made the mistake of avoiding conflict in the early months of that job. I didn't stand up for myself when an age-discriminatory comment was made about me, my knowledge, and my abilities. I put myself in the position of taking grief from one person in particular for over a year until I finally stood up for myself. Bullies in the workplace are just like bullies in junior high. They harrass those that they feel won't fight back. They do this to elevate their own perceived political status. Office bullies, like bullies from Junior High, also back down when their victim bites back. They will inevitably be a long-term enemy but you won't have to accept their daily dose of grief anymore.

        Remain civil at all times. You will inevitably be presented with one or more occasions where you are right and they are wrong. Meetings are a great place for this conflict to arise. You'll find that your age will be used as an excuse for why you're viewpoint is wrong. Keep a civil, level-headed tongue. Don't ever be combative. If you remain civil and never let yourself become flustered, you will drive them to their wits end. Play your cards right and they will lose control. You will however be the calm, cool, and collected individual that operates well under pressure. Acting combative, swearing, and otherwise losing your temper makes you look childish. Let other fill that role. Don't sink to their level. If you can't ignore the conflict and you feel that the upper management will side with you if you're right, document your concerns or objections in writing and submit it to management. There are numerous books that relate very well to this topic. Search around for books on conflict management, conflict resolution, negotiations, etc. You'll find plenty of good reading.

        Lo

        • Wow, I agree with almost everything you say. You write with a lot of wisdom.

          I burned some bridges BAD when I worked at a local University, I had no idea how predatory those people who'd been there for decades were. Now I keep EVERY email, I shorthand EVERY phone message, and I write down whatever I can about when people said to me.

          It seems to work to have documentation, my last employer tried to pin a lot of shit on the lower ranks (of which I was one), and I always had that request for something impossib
          • Wow, I agree with almost everything you say. You write with a lot of wisdom.

            Thanks. I learned the hard way: trial and error, lots of them. c'est la vie!

  • Big Ugly, and mean lookin' (Score:5, Funny)

    by Spock the Baptist ( 455355 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:00AM (#8268699) Journal
    The subject describes my physical appearance.

    I've never had problems with harassment.

  • Not harassment (Score:5, Informative)

    by Arkham ( 10779 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:05AM (#8268745)
    Telling you to work overtime or you'll be fired is not harassment, but it could be a violation of some labor laws (IANAL) depending on the nature of the job and the way you're paid. For example, if you're paid hourly, then they have to pay you for overtime. If you're on salary, you may or may not be entitled to paid overtime. Most states now are right-to-work states, which means that they can fire you for no reason, and you can quit for no reason, and nobody can do anything about it.

    Actual harassment, such as sexual harassment, physical intimidation, etc., is a whole other can of worms. You can and should fight this sort of thing, if for no other reason than to ger the person doing it fired. You can easily find a lawyer who will represent you for a percentage of the settlement. Just be prepared to find a new job when it's over.

    • Re:Not harassment (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Exactly. Making a threat "do this or your fired" is not necessarily harassment, if it falls within the bounds of what you are employed to do. If it becomes personal harassment, eg "hostile work environment" in the legal language, then an employee would definitely have a case against the employer, provided you have documented specifics and particular instances, and have tried to address the problem with either the person(s) doing the harassing, management, or HR and nothing has been done.
    • Telling you to work overtime or you'll be fired is not harassment

      Classic dilemma -- we have two vocabularies. Common usage, and legal definitions.

      Obviously, this can be indeed be a form of harassment in the common usage of the term, but it's not harrasment by any legal definition of the word (in US law, anyway).

      Reminds me of a discussion I had with an aviation liability lawyer. He told me that there's no such thing as a "frivolous lawsuit". I cited many examples, but he wouldn't budge on his claim th
    • Most states now are right-to-work states, which means that they can fire you for no reason, and you can quit for no reason, and nobody can do anything about it.

      You just described "At-will employment". "Right to work" means that you can get a job at (for example) a factory and not join the labor union.

      LK

  • What constitutes harrassment? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:08AM (#8268762)
    At my old job, my boss had something against me. I have about 10 years of experience in the field, but I look young. I'm around 30, but look more like early 20's. At first I thought my boss was kidding around when he'd make comments about me not knowing something or "my many years of experience", but after awhile I realized the guy actually thinks because I look young, I must not know anything.

    Projects that I was on before he started were slowly being given to other people, and he joking around finally got to me. I asked him to stop, and it just got worse. And he got spiteful about it.

    Eventually it escalated to the point where I told him to fuck off and I walked out. Yeah, probably a bit childish, but I don't wanna be in a workplace where I have to go to HR and deal with jackasses who can't look past a person's physical appearance.

    I guy that was younger than me, with less experience and definintely less knowledge, got promoted to a position I applied for, but he looked much older than I did. That kind of shit is plain wrong, but almost impossible to prove. And it happens everywhere.

    • Re:What constitutes harrassment? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 13, 2004 @11:27AM (#8269503)
      guy that was younger than me, with less experience and definintely less knowledge, got promoted to a position I applied for, but he looked much older than I did.

      I don't know if you're male or female, but I'll assume you're male like most slashdotters.

      Grow a beard/mustache and add some grey color to your temples. It makes you look older & more responsible.

      Personally, I dislike facial hair. But it creates the impression of age, if that is your problem.

      • Re:What constitutes harrassment? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by deanj ( 519759 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @02:16PM (#8271607)
        You hit the beard/mustache thing on the head. I saw a guy go into a company, got promoted to management very quickly, and then people found out he was one of the youngest members of the staff. I saw a picture of him without the beard, and he looked like a kid.

        Pretty decent manager though.... far better than the other ones around there.
      • Well, you have to remember that there are some people who, genetically, simply *cannot* grow a beard... and those are typically the same kind of people who get mistaken for kids all the time.

        I have the same problem, and growing a beard is not an option. The best I can manage is peachfuzz which would make me look *even younger*.

        Your advice about grey color... hmm. Might be something to think about, or it might just make me look strange.
    • And it happens everywhere.

      What makes workplaces so difficult is that humans over millenia have developed innate expectations based on appearances. Women who come to work made up to look post-orgasmic with a perfect complexion (the root purpose of cosmetics) really do distract the men, whether they realize it or not. Look at the presidential races, right now--who looks more "presidential", Kerry or Edwards? Part of growing up as a civilization is finding ways beyond this, but humans are still very very

    • Re:What constitutes harrassment? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      but after awhile I realized the guy actually thinks because I look young, I must not know anything

      Eventually it escalated to the point where I told him to fuck off and I walked out

      Maybe it was not your appearance, but your maturity level that he had an issue with...
    • Actually, this is called discrimination.

      You wont get anywhere with the forced overtime because you are a computer professional, but if you were singled out about your appearance, that is text book discrimination. Trick is, you have to prove it.

      • Re:What constitutes harrassment? (Score:5, Informative)

        by DaHat ( 247651 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @03:01PM (#8272150)
        Technically yes, legally... no.

        This morning when I had McDonalds for breakfast, I discriminated against the Egg McMuffin by having a Sausage Egg McMuffin, just as I discriminated against Burger King by going to Mcdonalds.

        Funny thing about harassment and discrimination is that unless it breaks the law, you're safe.

        Example: In my state (South Dakota) I had some major problems with a professor (who I am happy to say I eventually helped to get removed) and claimed he was harassing me as well as making it very difficult for me to go to his class, unfortunately, the university and the law enforcement could do little because I am not a member of a protected class.

        White privilege my ass! The 'American White Male Aged 18-24' is the most discriminated against class in the US currently, and because I am one of those, nor part of a religion which is favored, they couldn't do a thing about it.

        Note: If I'm not mistake, this harassment was classified as 'unprofessionalism' as they were building a case to get rid of him.

  • Oh, c'mon! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by _iris ( 92554 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:10AM (#8268778) Homepage
    Change "her" to "him" and you'd be right. In the past year alone I've seen two men be fired, on the spot, without a chance for any rebuttal because a woman claimed sexual harassment. Of the four times I've seen a man claim he was sexually harassed by a female empoloyee, NOT ONCE was the woman fired, or even punished. In fact, in one instance, the man was fired!

    As far as being bullied into working unpaid hours, don't. It's that simple. You don't want to work for a company that bullies it's employees. The employment market is bad, but not bad enough to stay in a situation like that.
    • Let me put a different spin on the above.

      I've been the manager that had an employee commit sexual harassment of several women in our very small office. He was flagrant about it. I had information from multiple women that he was doing it. (What's worse is the idiot had a wife 7 months pregnant!) He wasn't fired, but was put on notice that it had to stop immediately. That nonsense ended, but he had plenty of OTHER issues that made him a real problem.

      When he chose to go to another job, we all wished him

      • Re:Oh, c'mon! (Score:3, Interesting)

        by gmhowell ( 26755 )
        Let me put another spin on the sexual harassment deal. If it weren't for sexual harassment, I don't think my parents would have met (and been happily and faithfully married for 30+ years).

        • Re:Oh, c'mon! (Score:2, Interesting)

          by kayen_telva ( 676872 )
          you know I read that and thought, how sad..

          when did it change from "happily" to "happily and faithful" ??
          I dont mean anything towards you,
          just society in general has created a need for such a qualification.
        • I hope thats +1 funny otherwise its -1 stupid. Sexual harrasment is traumatic and degrading to women, even I know that and Im the biggest jerk this side of the mississipi.

    • Re:Oh, c'mon! (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The guy who made harassment charges against a woman and was fired should get the law involved; you cannot legally be fired for bringing a harassment complaint unless it is found to be libelous (a lie). The company's actions (not addressing the complaint appropriately) makes them culpable.

    • Re:Oh, c'mon! (Score:4, Funny)

      by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Sunday February 15, 2004 @03:34AM (#8284351) Homepage Journal
      As far as being bullied into working unpaid hours, don't. It's that simple. You don't want to work for a company that bullies it's employees. The employment market is bad, but not bad enough to stay in a situation like that.

      I got fired once because as the boss said "You get here when we open, and you leave when we close." They wanted someone to "give more" than the 45 hours per week that I was putting in.

      My favorite part of this story is what comes next...They fired me because I wasn't putting in more free hours, but they guy that they kept ended up laying the bone to the Boss's wife. When the divorce got ugly and they had financial problems, the other guy bought the business out of bankruptcy. So the guy who fired me lost his business and his wife to the guy that he choose to keep instead of me.

      I love that part of the story!

      LK

  • Good (Score:1, Insightful)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 )
    When you work for a company, the company is basically your customer, they are buying your labor.

    If you don't want them as a customer, quit selling your labor to them. Don't whine and bitch and look for someone to sue.

    • Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EnglishTim ( 9662 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:32AM (#8268937)
      It's not as simple as that - the analogy doesn't work. Unless you are working freelance, the company is your only 'customer' and they have some responsibilities to you in excange for the fact that you work exclusively for them.
      • The company may be your only current customer, but there are always other customers out there. There's hardly a monopsony in the labor market these days. Now, admittedly it won't be simple to change employers...

  • "loosing the job..." (Score:3, Funny)

    by gbrandt ( 113294 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:44AM (#8269016)
    if you are loose in your job, perhaps you deserve to lose it.

  • Paper trail! (Score:5, Informative)

    by n1ywb ( 555767 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @10:55AM (#8269141) Homepage Journal
    Whatever you decided to do, you won't have a leg to stand on without a solid paper trail. So get creative with ways to get your boss to put stuff in writing. It's your only chance of having any kind of case.

  • Interview questions. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 13, 2004 @11:04AM (#8269242)
    Since we are on this topic, I have had a question I have been meaning to ask. A fried of mine interviewed for a company in Texas. At that interview they asked him several inappropriate questions, like if he is Gay, if he likes women, if he is married, has a girlfriend, etc.

    He is of Middle Eastern ansectory and has an Arabic last name. They asked him where he is from. As soon as he told them he is from the ME, their next question was "So learning to fly planes?" There were 2 other interviewers in the room, and all they were doing was laughing.

    My friend was a bit puzzled, but kept on answering the questions with a smile. He didn't really know these questions were inappropriate. Well later that day he did get a job offer from them, so all seems to be good.

    Later on he found out that he was one of the 5 candidates who applied for the job, and the others were not even close to being qualified for the job.

    He isn't pissed or anything, but me and him always wondered if he had would have considered this harassment and taken it to court, how exactly does one go about proving that such things were said?

    • How has the job worked out? At a minimum they are racist fucking pricks that deserve to be hauled out into the middle of town and horsewhipped. Cultural differences aside, there is a modicum of respect that is required between employer and employee. I would suggest your fiend quietly find themself a new job. When he/she leaves, tell the employer why, and ask them who is in charge of the legal department? They don't even have to follow through, but it might scare them into acting appropriately in the fu

    • Re:Interview questions. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by andy@petdance.com ( 114827 ) <andy@petdance.com> on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:03PM (#8269930) Homepage
      Well later that day he did get a job offer from them, so all seems to be good.

      So he got a job to work with a company where derogatory and demeaning remarks are acceptable? That doesn't sound "good" to me.

      There's more to a job than a paycheck.

      • There's more to a job than a paycheck.

        Very well put! It looks like you and I think alike [slashdot.org]. No job is worth taking grief over. It's not healthy for you and the quality of your work will not be something you can say you're proud of. Move on a find a better job. Don't settle for something that will give you ulcers.

    • I hate to defend this behavior, but, in technical fields there tends to be a high number of socially inept people. We once called them (and ourselves most likely) nerds, and now try to insist that they are geeks (cool nerds). The interviewer may have been trying to be funny, with no clue that it was inappropriate in general much less in an group interview.
    • I will probally be a his word vs. theirs. It was just one interview, which he could have got up and walked out fine because there was no relationship existing with the company.

      If they continue this once he works there, then it could be harrassment.

      Your friend did the right move in answering and smiling. He could always say "No" to their offer later if it really bothered him.
    • Like it or not asking of someone is gay may or may not be legal in Texas I am not sure. There is no federal law protecting sexual preference that I am aware of. A lot of states do have laws about that but not all.
      Asking if a person is married is most likely legal in fact I know that it is required for many retirement plans.

      • Re:Interview questions. (Score:3, Informative)

        by catfood ( 40112 )

        Asking if a person is married is most likely legal in fact I know that it is required for many retirement plans.

        But that comes after you are hired. You can't ask (in the US) a job candidate if they are married (because it might indicate an intent to discriminate on gender), nor their age, religion, racial/ethnic background, stuff like that. A lot of times it's pretty obvious--such as when the candidate is wearing a wedding band--and of course the candidate frequently brings these issues up, such as on

      • Additional rights? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by anomaly ( 15035 )
        Should our society establish civil rights on the basis of behavior?

        For example:
        I drive a station wagon. Some other drivers don't like that.
        I like Linux. Some people think that it's nerdy to use Linux.
        I like Mac OS X. Some computer users (eve n some linux-likers) look down on me for that.
        I like to go for walks. Some people get upset when others get exercise while they sit.
        I like to sing. Some people don't like the kind of songs I sing.

        It is conceivable that an argument could be made that each of those
    • I could imagine the discussion of which candidate to hire went something like "You asked him what? His sexuality? His race? If he's a terrorist because he's arab? You idiot! Now we have to hire him. We don't want another lawsuit on our hands."
    • This company has HR issues, but since your friend was offered the job, I doubt he has a court case. It is my understanding that the questions aren't necessarily illegal: discriminating against someone on the basis of the questions is. Therefore, companies have policies against these sorts of questions, so that if they do not hire a candidate, they are not open to nasty lawsuits.

      One HR person at a previous company provided us with a helpful "no-no" list, which included questions about:

      birthplace
      citizenship
    • At that interview they asked him several inappropriate questions, like if he is Gay, if he likes women, if he is married, has a girlfriend, etc.

      Why is it inappropriate to ask him if he is Gay, married, or has a girlfriend?

      Your conduct outside of the workplace can reflect upon your employer. Sure it may have been a tech job, but what if one of the company's flagship products is a finance package for churches? If their business would be directly harmed by it becoming general knowledge that their "Church F

      • If their business would be directly harmed by it becoming general knowledge that their "Church Finance" software package was developed by homosexual coders, they have a legitimate reason to ask.

        They do not.

        However, they do have a legitimate reason to inform the candidate of the situation, perhaps by saying something like, "One of our products is a finance package for churches. As such, many of our clients are conservative Christians. They have certain...expectations of us, as a company, and as employe

        • They do not.

          Yes they do.

          Cracker Barrel terminated 11 homosexual employees [aclu.org] in 1991 because they did not conform to their "family friendly" image.

          Even more, there wasn't a thing any of them could do about it. Sexual preference is not legally protected in most states.

          LK
          • And in 1961 they could turn you away for being black, and in 1971 they could turn you away for being a woman. What's your point? What used to be acceptable, like your example from 14 years ago, is not acceptable today. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is still permitted in many states; Cracker Barrel's policy is "we will not discriminate against anyone we are not allowed to discriminate against" which means that they won't fire gays where it's illegal to fire gays. That's why I won't eat at Cr
    • Those questions are definatley inappropriate but probably not illegal. It should be a good indication that something is wrong at that company. To give you a contrast -- I've had several interviews where there was a SCRIPT -- they interviewers were not allowed to deviate from the script, AT ALL.

  • Not much... (Score:4, Funny)

    by meta-monkey ( 321000 ) * on Friday February 13, 2004 @11:10AM (#8269295) Journal
    You have to be very careful in the way you deal with harassment. My brother-in-law has a B.S. in Building & Construction Management, and an MBA, and worked as a project manager for a very large builder, leading multiple projects in the tens of millions of dollars. His immediate supervisor was a very gruff guy, and would frequently scream obscenities in my brother-in-law's face, and at co-workers. Finally, my BIL couldn't take it anymore, and complained to his boss's boss. My BIL was promptly fired. "Sorry, the supervisor's been here longer, and is friends with the owner and and..." It took him three months to find another job.

    I have a very different situation. The girl who works with me in my office is constantly demanding attention of a sexual nature that is totally inappropriate to a working environment. She often makes explicit comments about my appearance. Sometimes, she exposes herself to me, and makes comments of a graphic nature. I, of course, indulge her.

    I should also mention that I'm self employed, and work at home with my wife :)

  • Beware inertia and fear (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:04PM (#8269940) Homepage Journal
    Hmmm.

    So you hate the place you work? Why are you still working there?

    Look at it this way. You are the victim of a faulty syllogism:


    (1) I am a highly trained software engineer.

    (2) There are no alternative jobs for highly trained software engineers.

    (3) Therefore there are no alternative jobs for me.


    Why do you have to be a software engineer? Is it because you like the job? Well, taken as a whole you don't appear to like your job.

    Is it the pay? Well, do you have time to enjoy the pay?

    I don't want to oversimplify this, because if you demand respect, you may end up with respect but no job. But if you start from the position that you need this job to survive then your prospects are grim.

    On the other hand if you start from the attitude that you can survive without this job, and that every person has a right to dignity and a personal life, you can make a rational decision about where to draw the line. You have your line, your boss has his line, and the space in the middle is where you can negotiate changes without having to issue an ultimatum. If you're boss's line is behind your line, then you have to look for another job.

    So, we've established that you should attempt to negotiate working condition improvements. How do you do it? There's no magic formula becuase it depends on your boss. Of course, if your boss is a narcissitic jerk, then there is no hope, and you have to pull the plug on the relationship. I'd suggest that you point out he can get more out of his employees if they are happy and willing. Appeal to his sense of leadership. A little fear now and then is a good thing, but a constant atmosphere of fear and powerlessness is poisonous to productivity.

    I manage a highly productive development team. Any one of them would, if I asked, willingly put in an 80+ hour week. The key here is willing. My management problem is that I actually have to throttle them back so they don't repeatedly throw themselves into the breach. Today I have people taking an enforced four day weekend because they gave up their last weekend. I just tell other managers they can't keep going to the same well over and over without consequences in quality and productivity. I express sincere gratitude for efforts above and beyond, and find various little ways to reward and acknolewdge them. The result is we have a lot more fun, and in an emergency I can call any of them on 8PM on a Friday and they will gladly come in for the weekend. Respect and cameraderie are incredibly powerful management tools.

    • Re:Beware inertia and fear (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ummagumma ( 137757 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:11PM (#8270013) Journal
      Mod this guy up, sounds like the type of person I would work for at the drop of a hat.

      Unfortunatly, he represents 1% of management...*sigh*
    • If only more companies could afford to do things that way. I've been bugging my employer for a raise for months now. The CFO doesn't argue that I'm not worth it, he says I'm more than worth it, but the money just isn't there. I think he's a liar, because I know how much I cost the company (above and beyond pay and benefits, etc) and I know how much I've made them in the last 2 years. I know some profit goes to support failed projects, but the guys on those projects are getting paid double what I am. Oh, an

      • FYI, you should make 3.5 times your annual salary in a body business (engineering, consulting, or the equivalent), to be a profitable employee. If you are currently bringing in a higher multiple, then you should get a raise. A lower multiple, and you are probably just out of luck.

        Make sure you take credit for what you do, and people know your value to the organization.

        • Yeah, i pull about 35k. A conservative estimate of what I produced? 200k.
          What I suspect some other guys are making, 60-70k. What they earned the company? 0k after their paychecks were paid, just broke even, project didn't even ship because they're morons who get away with whatever they like because their children play with the CFOs children, go to church together, etc.
          • an old greek philosopher once said that those too smart to engage in politics are destined to be ruled by those stupider than them.

            it sucks, but i've found it to be true.

            good luck! just keep careful track of your billable/profitable hours, and ask for a 'performance review' every quarter or so. Ask what you can do/learn, in addition to what you already do, to make your 50-60k.

            maybe ask for a performance bonus for meeting certain predefined milestones?

      • Re:Beware inertia and fear (Score:4, Insightful)

        by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @04:10PM (#8272994) Homepage Journal
        It's interesting your cfo admits you're worth more than they pay you. If this is true, it means you could be employed somewhere for more money if you looked. So why not look?

        In the meantime, suggest to him this is a problem youlve both agreed upon, and you'd like to work towards a long term solution. Naturally this would include higher pay and career advancement in the not-so-long term, but in the short term you might settle for more vacation, comp time, better equipment, more say in projects: you know. Anything that matters to you and is easy for him. It's like writing a complaint letter: be specific about what the other guy needs to do to make you happy.

        You may even get farther on the salary front with this approach. Remember yor boss's job is, to be brutally frank, to get your services as cheap as possible. If your boss can look you in the face, tell you he's paying less than you are worth, he's pretty sure you aren't going anywhere unless you're kicked out.

        The problem with coders is they'd just like to code and be taken care of. This is why management doesn't respect them. Management seldome cares or knows anything about the care and feeding of coders. So if you just go to your boss, complain that your job and pay sucks, then go dutifully back to the grindstone, then your problems are easy to ignore, aren't they?

        I don't recommend bravado or ultimatums, just quietly project that you know how to take care of yourself. The only way to get what you're worth is to look out for yourself.
    • You takin' applications?
    • You seem like a pretty cool manager. I hope your team appreciate you.

  • What about "Hotlines" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mr. Piddle ( 567882 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:07PM (#8269968)

    Many bigger companies have an "Ethics Compliance Hotline" that is supposedly "Confidential". Has anyone every used one? Was it effective?

    Of course, these situations are highly political. So, you call the hotline, the boss gets canned and give you a real mean look on the way out (how many people could have squealed, anyway).

    • Re:What about "Hotlines" (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Posting anonymously for a reason. My boss made some off remarks about a contract employee's situation (diabetic and couldn't work more then 8 hours a day because of it) and why he would not hire him for a full time position. This was in a meeting with 4 of the guy's coworkers. One of them, also a diabetic, took offense and called the HR ethics hotline. They were all but jumping into the phone to find out who it was. He (my boss) was going to be fired on the spot, and probably get fined. But the caller didn'
  • First off, what your "rights" are according to me and your rights according to the current government are two totally different things. If you want to know what the gov. can do for you talk to a lawer.

    Second, my actual opinion on the matter:
    Employment is a type of contract like any other. If you don't like it find a way (under the terms of the contract) to renegotiate or get out of it.

    Many states mandate at will employment meaning either side can end the aggreement at any time for any reason. This is "A
    • If the government stopped meddling so much in the way businesses work, the forces of capitalism would act much more directly on the way employment aggreements function.

      Study your history. That's been tried, and it's been proven that there is a strong need for the government to meddle in such things.

      I agree with your other points, though.

  • lawyer up (Score:5, Informative)

    by falsification ( 644190 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:36PM (#8270296) Journal
    Time for you to lawyer up.

    "actual personal harassment"

    If you are at the receiving end, take the following steps:

    1. Call a lawyer. If you don't know one, go to Google and search for "state bar association" +nameofyourstate. They will have a lawyer referral service. This is a great way to get a lawyer.
    2. If you can't find a lawyer that way, look through the yellow pages or some other place.
    3. The first thing you should ask the lawyer is how much he charges for an "initial consultation." This might be free. It should not be exorbitant.
    4. By talking to a lawyer you will gain a good picture of whether you have a case.
    5. If you have a case and wish to proceed, you should call at least two lawyers before choosing one of them.
    You have legal rights. You should at least find out what they are.
    • That's nice, but if you just lost your job you probably cannot afford to pay a lawyer enough to take on a large company with a legal staff. A friend of mine lost his job and probably had an age discrimmination case - actually he did. The large company made it clear that would see to it that he lost everything in legal fees before it ever went to trial. His lawyer advised him to drop-it because he can't fight legal maneuvers. Has anybody heard of SCO? The legal system in America is by the rich and for t
      • Oh. I see. The person that wronged you told you it would be useless to sue. So you just give up?

        No. You call a lawyer anyway.

        Worried about legal fees? In many types of cases, the lawyer can work on a "contingency fee." That means you pay nothing. If you win, the lawyer gets a percentage of your judgment. You keep the rest.

        Don't rely on the Internet. Talk to a lawyer.

  • In many States there is little you can do (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DukeLinux ( 644551 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @12:46PM (#8270417)
    I work in Pennsylvania. This is a "work at will" State meaning your employer can terminate you anytime without notice or reason. They are also not required to pay unused vacation. Basically, any action which may be interpreted as "non-conforming" will get you invited to conference room 1-B. This is the one next to the front door. You are not allowed to clean-out your office or take personal belongings including your coat with you as you leave. Security will go through your desk, decide what is yours and place a box outside the building at 6:00 PM for pick-up (hopefull by you). Five people were terminated earlier this week a couple of hours after their group director held a meeting telling them the rumors of more terminations were false. Employers have us right where they want us.
    • That's when I'd have Mr. Policeman come and get my shit back. Course, I'd file harassment, threat and theft charges at them. And also get the names to call the other "firees" (I'm assuming they fired them so they can get around unemployment) so they can join your suit.

      Make 'em sweat a little
    • I have personal experience with this. What you do is you try to go into the building to get your things. When they refuse to let you in, you tell them that you're going to the police station and will bring an armed escort with you. If they still don't let you in, go to the nearest police station and tell them that your previous employer has been given multiple attempts to return property of yours and that you want an escort into the buidling to recover your property. Contrary to your belief they will pr
  • I went through three of them. Wrote core code for each, then got squeezed out when it was time to get profitable. Startups are abusive by design and you as a programmer mean nothing to them. My advice, a larger, more stable, long term profitable company is probably not such a bad thing. Definately not as sexy, but what's wrong with a little of comfort and security to look forward to?
  • make your own compensation. :)
  • By concluding the post with ...given current employment law, the question immediately becomes a troll or flamebait. So its the evil employers, who have the System in their pocket, to 'exploit' the Working Class? Geesh. Rephrase, with less inflammatory language, please, and we'll discuss. Lets discuss some specifics.

  • What is the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ivan_13013 ( 17447 ) <ivan DOT cooper AT gmail DOT com> on Friday February 13, 2004 @01:52PM (#8271266)
    Don't I have a RIGHT to take a job where they make me work long hours and don't pay extra?

    And don't I also have a right to go somewhere else, negotiate a better deal, or work by the hour as a contractor?

    What is the problem here?

    Anyhow, when someone thinks they are getting screwed because they are being forced to work extra hours without pay, the two relevant questions to ask are:

    (1) Is the person a salaried aka "exempt" employee?

    When they are, there's no legitimate legal claim. The "exempt" pretty much means they have chosen to take a position that is classified as exempt from most labor laws.

    But if they're an hourly employee, they are legally entitled to get paid for all of the time they work, and probably higher overtime pay as well.

    (2) Okay, so if they are an exempt employee, are they classified correctly according to the law?

    The laws on this vary from state to state. In order to be exempt, usually the employee has to make some decisions on their own, have special training, have some control over their work schedule (again, as long as the job gets done), etc.

    Many states have laws which make it very easy for pretty much any high-tech position to be exempt, which seems like a good thing to me.

    I don't want to be forced to work hourly, because then I might have to accept a lower wage! If my position could not be classified as exempt, the company might lower their hourly offer to account for expected overtime. They may expect to have me work more than 40 hours per week. Then, to make the same money I make now, I'd need to work overtime every week instead of just when needed.

    If I felt like my employer wasn't paying me enough (and if I didn't like it), I would focus on getting a better job rather than putting time and energy into a lawsuit.

    -=Ivan

    • (1) Is the person a salaried aka "exempt" employee?

      When they are, there's no legitimate legal claim. The "exempt" pretty much means they have chosen to take a position that is classified as exempt from most labor laws.

      Not necessarily. Lets say an employer represented the job as a 9 to 5, 40 hour a week job and after hiring the employee then required them to work numerous weeks over the advertised number of hours. A reasonable person could say that this is excessive and the employer misrepresented the

  • (I Am Still Not A Lawyer), but....

    Even if it doesn't apply to labor/workplace laws, anyone who personally harrasses you is setting themselves up for a civil and/or criminal court case. You can't tape them saying that stuff (since it breaks wiretapping laws, I believe), but I'd check with a lawyer about it.

    I also don't know the labor/employment laws of your state, but I don't think that bringing either kind of case would be grounds for termination.

    On the other hand, if you're really getting this kind o

  • As a contractor, you have no rights (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Working as a contractor at another company, I had my contract terminated for writing an email to my manager at that company complaining that he was discriminating against me, and that that was illegal. When I complained to the EEOC, they explained "Since the manager was not your employer, we have no jurisdiction." So apparently it is perfectly legal to harrass contractors! As a contractor, apparently your only recourse is to find another position.

  • and the problem would be what, exactly? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ajagci ( 737734 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @04:55PM (#8273616)
    Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't, to actual personal harassment in the work place by management staff

    You should look at your employment contract. There are some employment contracts under which you never get paid overtime, and there are others in which you are. In either case, the employer can fire you if he isn't satisfied with your performance. Maybe the fact that your employer tells you to work overtime is a last opportunity he is giving you for making up work you should have been getting done during working hours if you had been reasonably effective (and not been posting on Slashdot).

    My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law."

    Of course, and why not? There is a small set of things your employer cannot fire you (e.g., your race). Anything else is fair game. After all, you yourself wouldn't want to be forced to keep employing a nanny or cleaning lady if you don't like the way she is performing. Why should your employer be forced to do the equivalent, then?

  • What to do in California (Score:5, Informative)

    by ezraekman ( 650090 ) on Friday February 13, 2004 @08:28PM (#8275855) Homepage

    I was wondering if Slashdot readers have encountered harassment in the workplace, and how they have dealt with it. In particular, when working for technology-based companies. Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't, to actual personal harassment in the work place by management staff. My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law.

    Okay, since you didn't specify where you are, I'm going to give you advice based on California law. As always, you should consult a lawyer. Fortunately, California has one available to you for free. It's called the Commission for Labor Standards Enforcement. Their job is to assist employees who are getting screwed by their employers. They will give you: advise, handouts that explain the laws that affect you, and assistance in filing a claim. In San Francisco, they're at 455 Golden Gate, across from the federal building, on the 8th floor. You can also call them at (415) 703-5300... but don't bother if you're outside of California. Your state probably has something similar; check it out.

    Requiring you to work overtime is, more or less, legal. Threatening to fire you if you don't work the way they want you to... well, sorry Bub, it's at-will employment, unless you've got a contract that states otherwise. Threatening to fire you is not harassment, unless it degenerates to insults or something similar. From their point of view, you're not doing what the job "requires". Think of it this way: if you were late repeatedly, they'd be well within their rights to threaten to fire you if you didn't shape up, right? There is some good news, though:

    Overtime
    If you are salaried (exempt from eligibility for overtime), they don't have to pay anything extra over your normal salary. If you're hourly (non-exempt from eligibility for overtime), they do. I'll get into that in more detail shortly. As far as overtime is concerned, you're owed normal pay for the first 8 hours worked in a single day, 1.5 times normal pay for between 8 and 12 hours in a single day, and 2 times normal pay for anything above 12 hours in a single day. However, I believe there is some legislation in there that if the total hours worked in a week is less than 40, you are no longer eligible for overtime. This may vary from industry to industry (for example, the entertainment industry has different rules from the food industry, which has different rules from... you get the picture. Check with the labor Commission to find out the rules regarding overtime in your industry. But if it's overtime beyond 40 hours in a week, you shouldn't need to worry about that.

    Are you salaried? Legally?
    There are a bunch of rules regarding who is salaried and who is not. Again, check with the Labor Commission for specifics, but here's the short version: If you aren't in a managerial or supervisory position (i.e. bossing anyone else around), you're not salaried. There are other requirements, such as pay rate, etc... but if you aren't a boss, they have to pay you hourly, unless you're making a bunch ($45/hour plus, I think) of money. Regardless of what your employer says you are or are not, you aren't legally salaried unless you meet those requirements. Let's assume that you aren't legally salaried for now. If this is the case, and they require you to work, they have to pay you. The law is worded like this: If an employer "requires or allows" an employee to work, they must compensate them for it. This means that you can go ahead and work the overtime, track it, and get them for it later.

    Filing a claim
    Well, here's some more good news. In my experience, the burden of proof is on the employer to prove that you didn't work the hours in question, rather than you to prove that you did. That doe

  • If you do contract work these days, you know that there is pressure to 'give a little extra' and not bill for it. Some cave in, some don't and don't suffer, and some don't and get replaced. Either way, I've seen it and experienced it.

    Currently, I'm in the 'won't cave in and haven't suffered' group.

  • Harassment (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LauraW ( 662560 ) on Monday February 16, 2004 @01:20AM (#8291289)
    A few comments:

    Examples of this include the company forcing employees to put in extra (unpaid) hours, with the implicit/explicit threat of loosing the job if they don't

    In some states this is illegal. At my last job it was well-known that layoffs were in the works, and the CEO told me that unless I committed to working 60 hour weeks I'd probably be on the list. I agreed and promptly started job-hunting. I quit about a month later, coincidentally right when the 10% pay cut they had announced kicked in. It was very satisfying..

    At the post-layoff meeting I was talking with our company lawyer and the CEO, and he she jokingly asked him "So, did you do anything illegal this week?" When he said "No", I mentioned the conversation we'd had and the lawyer's jaw dropped. She admits that employment law isn't her specialty (she mostly does licensing and contracts) but she's pretty sure that what he said was illegal in California.

    My experience is that even in cases where the employee is completely right, it is impossible for her to win the case, given current employment law.

    I used to be a manager, so I've been through lots of training on this. If you're talking about sexual harassment, there are basically two kinds: "climate" and "quid pro quo". The first is where the harassment makes the company an unpleasant or intolerable place to work. Quid pro quo harassment is an explicit bargain or threat: have sex with me or you won't get the promotion. Both of them are grounds for a lawsuit, but quid pro quo harassment cases are easier to win (juries are more sympathetic). I think they're also worse in a legal sense, like being eligible for punitive damages in addition to actual damages.

    Laura, who INAL and all that.

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