Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers? 1525
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Cost of Living Index (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Look here to get detailed information on actual wages in your area:
http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/home.htm
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
That sounds like a bargain to me. Where can I fax the list of people I want killed?
Re: i don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pasta: $0.50 per meal (3-3 meals out of a 1-pound bag)
B33F: $0.50 per meal (3-4 big helpings of sauce out of a $3.00 glob of ground beef)
Garlic, herbs, veggies, bread: $0.10 per meal - considering how little you need in a pile of good sauce and garlic bread) Wine: $0.50 per meal (again, a $2.00 bottle of red plonk to add zest to tomato sauce, or white plonk to add zest to bolognese)
For $2.00 per meal, you can eat pretty fucking well.
Don't have time to cook? Bullshit! If you add up the time it takes to get to the restaurant and wait for someone to prepare it for you, you're probably saving time, considering that you can make 4-5 jars (if you're clever about when/how/what/if you add the meat/wine, each with a different flavor) of sauce in one session, and freeze it for later.
These kinds of savings scale all the way up the ladder. Consider a steak dinner. $20.00 a pound for filet mignon. So you get a couple of 8-oz filets and pair it with $0.50 worth of veggies, potatoes, and onions ($0.33 per pound!) for onion soup and sauteed onions. That's a $100.00 meal for $15.00, and it took you about an hour to prepare it.
Want dessert? You know those wonderful chocolate balls that you pay $1.50 each for at Godiva's? Buy some $5.00/pound high-quality dark chocolate. Melt it down in a pot with some $2.00/250mL cream. Add a splash of cognac. 20 minutes later, pour into a big pan and chill it overnight. Tomorrow afternoon, chop it into cubes, and roll the cubes into balls. (Optional: If you have an SO, have fun licking each others' fingers :) Congratuations! You've (optionally: gotten laid, and) made $100+ worth of chocolate truffles for less than $10.00, and it's taken you about half an hour.
I eat about $1000/month worth of food every month. I pay about $150. Life is good.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage.
Re:Shit, I missed this. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage."
Myself -- I'm making, quite literally, $10 per hour -- and coding at a very high level, database-to-business objects-to-presentation level, and am even occasionally (read: when I have the time) asked to write and create visual content for the end-user documentation. I only have a 2-year AS degree, from a small technical college. (I got it when I was 18, but it's still just an A.S.)
I'm surprisingly happy with this job, despite the fact that when I work long enough hours, my actual hourly wage has gotten as low as $7.50. I think that the reason for it is two-fold:
1) I live in an area with a fairly low cost of living, in semi-rural Minnesota. More importantly, I have a lot of friends and family in the area -- and it's not that easy of an area to find a job in!
2) Because I am such a good value, I am afforded a lot more freedom in the way that I do my job, and in how I get to solve problems. This is a must, particularly when you occasionally have to work with procedural programmers (who are your superiors) that still feel that OOP (or functional programming, yadda yadda -- no elitism) is not "real work".
And I should probably add to that list a third reason:
3) I love programming. I respect programming as a real engineering profession, not as something that you can just *do*. Even with visual development tools
When these sort of things work out in your favor, and you aren't tied down, and the work that you're doing is actually more satisfying the harder you work on it -- then as far as I'm concerned, you've got it made. Regardless of what you're making per hour.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
Will there be enough to buy some hotpockets and a can of diet coke?
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:4, Funny)
There are things worse than rupees... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to be a complete buzzkill, but at $20/hr (hopefully w/ benefits), grab that opportunity because it's a good one. If for nothing else, it gets you in the industry during a tough period at a very livable wage. Yes, you could live in NYC on that wage (would probably need a roomate or to live in one of the lower cost areas...)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Now, if a person lives in, say, Iowa, or Utah, or, really, a lot of places other than California, then $45K is not bad at all. But around here, it's not easy.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:4, Interesting)
You can get the same house for about 180,000 in Vegas.
So I think it really depends where you are planning to live and work.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
parent mentioned something about "kids" or something. maybe they cost money.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know your situation (obviously) but page 13 of that same report mentions that Canada's "Tax Freedom day" - the day that the average Canadian has earned enough to pay all of the taxes for that year - in 2003 fell in the 178th day of the year, June 27th. That's even worse than Britain's "TFD", which will be on the 163th day of the year, June 11th. Contrast that with the US "TFD", which was on April 11th. So the US tax rates are lower than Canada's after al - lower by a couple of months!
Of course, they are all still way too high. Even God Almighty only asks for a tithe.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
YEP!! and that's just payroll. Then we get to the fun taxes like sales, property, gas, electricity, telephone, natural gas, cable, capital gains, interest, inventory, self-employment, county, city, vehicle registration, vehicle insurance, etc.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
The administration costs for our healthcare runs at about 3%, which is a fraction of what it costs for an HMO. That runs about 25% since they spend a lot of money trying to deny that you're covered for anything.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
My wife has just been diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmunue disease... no waiting around at all. Furthermore, I don't feel trapped in my job like I would in the US where I would be scared of losing my medical coverage for her.
I recall when I lived in the US of a co-worker whose husband developed Lou Gehrig's disease. The first thing she did was start looking for a job whose health care plan would accept patients with pre-existing conditions as she was scared our current employer would go under or would be bought and the health plan change - what kind of existence is that? That's just wrong.
My wife's grandmother needed a quadruple heart bypass, no waiting for that either. There have been several other members of the family who've needed medical attention or surgery and none of them have had any of the issues you speak of.
I'm sorry about your grandmother, but that's the exception and not the norm. I've heard similar stories from the US too. I've heard similar stories from other countries in the world. Now stop reading the Toronto Star and try to get your news from somewhere less sensational and more objective and realistic.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you really think the grass is greener, then move. You'll soon find the same 8 hour waits in American emergency rooms (ask me, I know firsthand), the same shit on endoscopes, and the same wastes in terms of costs. Doctors on the US are business people. They make more money dispensing 6 doses of chemotherapy, than one dose of radionuclide therapy. Know how I know, I work in the health industry in Canada, and used to in the US. Canada's health care system isn't perfect by any means (ie, lack of PET imaging), but if you think the US is any better, you're extremely naive.
Oh yeah, and the tax situation in the US is not a whole lot better than in Canada either. You have to count more than just Federal or State taxes when you calculate the tax burden. There are so many more fees for other services in the US that people take for granted and don't include in their texes.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
You have a job and no more homework or papers for school.
If you can pay rent with 1/4-1/3 of your monthly salary, eat and have fun, then seize it.
You're not getting married. If it TRULY sucks, you can leave. If you can make it a year first, great.
After that you have a track record that you can survive at a place for a year. (it's important, really).
You have something on your resume.
You get to see what work is like in the real world and what you like and don't like about this place.
A friend's dad was a job counselor. He helped his son and I go through some college selection things when we were 17. The stuff he used at work which was kinda cool. Make a list of your previous jobs.
- write down 10 (or so) things you liked.
- write down 10 things you DIDN'T like
- Take that last list and find the opposite
Now, take the pluses and the opposite of minuses and choose 10 most important things and look around with that in mind.This can be challenging work; babes in the office; free pizza on fridays; working with project managers to learn how it all works, whatever.
"Micromanaging boss" might become "boss that lets me work on my own a bit"
I found my list from pre-college 10 years later. Where my college didn't match on that list was often where I was frustrated and annoyed. OTOH, there were things I just didn't know about and was wrong on. But it happens. And 12 of 15 things were just about right.
Learn to cook. Brown rice and beans will cost $2 and be 3 meals. Spices and garlic make it worth eating.
Learn to budget. You have $N. You can spend $F on food, $R on rent, $L on loan payback, $S on some savings. The rest is $Entertainment and fun.
Spend > $E, and you lose. Put it on Visa and you might as well surrender now.
You really don't need a new TV. You may need new clothes for work though. None of it is deductable.
Hell, burn the TV. It takes an IQ point away for every 100 hrs you watch.
Take time and save up and travel some. You're less encumbered and can have fun.
everything you do before you're 25 is overlooked in the job world
I spent 3 summers touring with bands building Rock and Roll stages. It was a blast; I made some cash; I didn't die (before I reach for that, did I clip in or not...). My crap was in storage and it had totally nothing to do with my "career." In the winter, I had some real jobs.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Insightful)
How to invest(I'm not responsible for this advise, know your risks, etc.):
Option 1: Buy mutual funds; I'd stick to funds with low management overheads like spiders, and S&P 500 and Wilkshire 7000 tracking funds. These do better then 97% of managed funds anyway and the risk and thought are low, just put some portion of your income into the market every month. Possibly put some of this money in bonds as a way of reducing risk.
Option 2: Get a professional to manage your money. This involves learning a little bit and looking into the track record of the guys involved. There's also more cost involved. Typically I wouldn't expect them to be able to out perform the S&P but some do, and your portfolio is taylored to you.
Option 3: Learn to do it yourself. It's not as easy as above, but I wouldn't call it difficult; if that's what you want I'd start with Fisher(Common Stocks, Uncommon Profits) and Graham(The Intelligent Investor). Both of these were written with the non-professional in mind.
Good luck!
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, planning for the future, what a crackpot.
Anything could happen in 40 years, including your death ...
The average lifespan in the US is in the mid-70's. I assume he intends to at least make average (I personally intend to live forever: so far, so good).
At least then you wouldn't need to be fiscally responsible.
And besides, $100 a month is not small change ...
No kidding dude, thats, like, 20 lattes.
Seriously though.
$100.00 per month.
40 years.
5% return.
You will have $152,602.02 at the end.
Really. Don't you just love compound interest?
you forgot one last thing... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:4, Funny)
Wow. I have a 135 IQ but I calculate that it would be 800 if I hadn't watched so much TV. Do I ever feel dumb now.
Likewise (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Insightful)
Be aware that you'll do better (bosses who like you and your work give better raises) if, in addition to tech skills, you show critical thinking and responsibility.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Funny)
That's just crazy talk! Those two traits are unwanted in investors, politicians and even voters!
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Interesting)
Another thing: If you can get a skill that differentiates you, it helps a LOT. My grades sucked, but when I was competing with the "2 quarters of ASP" kids and I had 4 years CGI experience, plus some java, it made me a lot more marketable. Not so much the skills, but that I acquired 'em on my own. Being a geek is helpful.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you get out there and network, another job will come your way. I have a friend who graduated with honors from a big name electrical engineering college (Rice) and he's 10 months out of school and working for $30K and happy.
It's tough out there. The solice of course is that if you're making 55k a year you're going to be doing $55k a year worth of work. Do you really want to jump headlong into 80 hours a week, on call, etc?
It's not 1994 anymore, you have to work for your money, even in the computing business...
Think of the Future - Raises (Score:5, Insightful)
They can suck you into the 80 hour week at any salary. Likewise, many $50k plus people are adept at avoiding the 80 hour work week. You only get 45 hours of work done in an 80 hour week anyway.
I really would be looking more at the company and projects than the salary. If the company is full of people making good money, then you will likely get good raises.
Employers look for progression in your salary. Going in low and getting a good raise in the first year can really jump start a resume. Leaving without a good raise makes you look bad.
So, if it looks like a company pays well, then going in low is a wise choice.
Re:Think of the Future - Raises (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been through too many instances were I was promised all these bonuses and raises only to have them disappear later due to "lack of money." - not because of my performance. I would get these wonderful reviews and then told, "It's too bad it's not in the budget because I'd give you a big raise. I can only afford 3%."
I would then quit. They were all pissed at me for quitting, but the old saying still holds true: "Money talks, Bullshit walks."
Re:Think of the Future - Raises (Score:5, Interesting)
After a month I interviewed (4 hours of interviews for my own position) and I beat out someone else for my own job. The catch? They docked my pay 25% for the benefits (I was relying on my wife's benefits, $100 a month). My director said she's fix things in 3 months when the budget allowed for it. So, I basically played the waiting game and began applying for jobs after two months, and got an offer just in time to find out that she wasn't going to fix things.
It gave me the greatest sense of accomplishment to tell her that I was moving on, especially since she was going to counter-offer but I told her not to bother (I was aware of her budget and she could only afford half of the increase I was getting). Ahhh... memories...
Trust no one, and get EVERYTHING in writing! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometime around the end of June, when my first performance review was due, a memo went out. The bonus plan was becoming an annual payout at the fiscal year-end, instead of quarterly, and it was going to be half cash, half stock options. Much grumbling, but in the economy of late 2001, having a job was better than not having one.
Then right after September 11 (October 2, in fact), a bunch of us got laid off. The bonus-payout issue was raised. We were told (this is priceless) that a memo had gone out the day before, but our team hadn't gotten it because our project manager had forgotten to distribute it to us. The alleged memo said that effective with the last quarter (the first one where the deferred-bonus plan was in effect), all bonus payout was to be annual, at the end of the fiscal year, but now it would be all stock options.
Essentially what they did was, in stages and retroactive to the previous two quarters, convert a quarterly cash bonus retroactively to an annual stock-option award. That didn't sit well with me, and with the "keeping my job" incentive removed, I decided to see what my options were.
To make a long story short, the Virginia Department of Labor & Industry [state.va.us] agreed with my interpretation, that since no employee signed any paperwork acknowledging the change in the bonus plan, the original offer letter's terms should stand. That I know of I'm the only person who fought them on this, but they didn't make me sign a confidentiality agreement so I made sure my co-workers knew. By the last day of December 2001 I had in my hand a check for 10% of my salary (6 months' worth of bonus) minus my relocation expenses. I probably could have quibbled over the meaning of "leave" versus "involuntarily terminated without cause", but by then I needed the money rather badly.
Get all the terms of your employment up front, in writing, and keep that paperwork safe!
Re:Think of the Future - Raises (Score:5, Insightful)
Your old boss may counter with a better offer, but you are going to be on his shit list forever and the first chance he gets to shaft you, you are going to get shafted.
Sure would suck to have them keep you on long enough to transfer all your knowledge out and wait for the other company to fill the slot, then have you be included in the group of people being layed off. Would suck bad.
Negotiate in good faith first with your employeer. If he won't give you what you think you need or deserve, then go looking elsewhere and when you find it, don't look back.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Likewise (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Likewise (Score:4, Insightful)
gid-goo
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Likewise (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Informative)
I started at $40k in January 2002, so the lower end of your range sounds reasonable for today. (It quickly went up from there, to where I was making about 50% more after two years.) As long as your expectations are reasonable (hint: $100k+ for slapping together crappy webpages in FrontPage is not reasonable), you should do OK in today's job market.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Informative)
A salary is based on several factors:
1) The value of the position to the company (you can't really judge this one, but it matters to your potential employer - keep in mind that not all jobs are "required" for a company to survive and that if an employer decides they can't hire a qualified individual for the money they have allocated, then they might ditch the idea altogether.)
2) The funds in the company that are available for the headcount.
3) Your experience in the field of work.
4) Your education level.
5) The value of the position in the local market. (e.g. what it cost them to employ the person prior to you, or what it will cost them to hire the next person, or what it will cost them to outsource your job to another country)
Those are in no particular order, but I would think that the most important from your potential employer's perspective is the amount of money they have available for the position.
Your value to a potential employer doesn't necessarily pay off right away if you have no experience, since they will have to train you on how their specific environment works. People with real-life experience in a specific environment can command greater salaries because the cost their employer less overall because they require less training and are usually ready to "hit the ground running".
My advice to you is to consider the whole package, not just the salary when you are scoping out a job. Does the employer offer good benefits? Can they offer you a signing bonus in leiu of a higher salary (it usually comes out of a different budget than the one the salary is paid from)? Is the workplace conducive to you learning a lot so you can become more marketable to your next employer? Will it be a high-stress job? Are the hours flexible? Is it close to your residence?
While the salary is the most important part of an employment package, there's a lot more to a good job that just it's salary.
Next time you're eating out, ask your waiter what kind of dental plan, medical plan, or 401k matching plan he has and how much it costs...
P.S. - I've been a waiter before and most employers don't offer benefits unless you're full time (40+ hours a week), which is rare in a foodservice environment.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Insightful)
Just my $0.02, after 25+ years as a programmer: salary falls well below a number of other considerations.
- Do you actively enjoy going to work each day?
- Does your job consistently strech your technical capabilities?
- Are your daily workmates more technically savvy than you, and happy to "mentor" you?
Answer "yes" to these questions, and salary doesn't matter: not only will you be happy, but you'll find that your salary increases quite quickly all by itself.
Re:Likewise (Score:5, Insightful)
I took early retirement last year, and that's all I was making then, after 30 years. If I had it to do all over again, I'd be an electrician, or a machinist, or a welder. Anything but a goddamned software slave. It wasn't worth it.
Hold on?! (Score:5, Funny)
The starting rate... (Score:5, Funny)
3 minutes on google gives us... (Score:5, Informative)
An Australian Resource (Score:5, Informative)
For instance, in Australia:
Here's an EXCELLENT resource at... gee... the most popular job search site in Australia, took me all of 5 minutes to track down:
http://careerone.com.au/resources/index/0,8526,do
If you can't be bothered to look up these things, then I don't think you deserve to know... or get paid much.
Bureau of Labor Statistics (Score:5, Informative)
Try looking at: http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm [bls.gov].
You already know the answer (Score:5, Funny)
Anything. (Score:5, Interesting)
Only take the table-waiting job if you can accomplish more worthwhile projects on your own time, and have excellent documentation skills to prove what you did.
Sorry pal (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been programming etc for over 20 years and I could probably make more money by driving a truck; various trades such as plumbing, electrician, ...
You seem to be a bit confused... (Score:5, Insightful)
A college degree does not confer skill. Skill must be demonstrated before it can be rewarded.
Re:You seem to be a bit confused... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, someone with 10 years of experience would have the most demostrated ability which is why those persons make the most money.
Bad news (Score:5, Interesting)
I have over 10+ years in tech, worked at a major software company and left for the dot bomb craze. I gave up lots of salary for equity and while the company was profitable and public, the market tanked a mere few weeks before my first vesting period. Even if it hadn't the AMT tax would have probably screwed me over anyway.
Since then I've worked some side stuff, waited tables, had the stupidity to try to sell cars and only in the last few months have things returned to what I call "normal."
Never mind that I worked on shrink wrapped products, developed a source level debugger, have had lots of experience on both Windows and UNIX. It all didn't matter to anyone.
I have to say, despite returning to a salary level that bests my previous best. I'm a changed person. Save, save, save.
IT blows. That's my 2 cents. HR people simply care about the last six months and are clueless if you are well ahead of your peers. They don't have the capacity to make this judgement.
You could tell them you architected (as an example) SSH and Kerberos have encryption patents and they might ask some stupid arse question like "Do you know JavaScript?"
Anyone starting school today... my advice is forget tech. If you feel it in your soul (like you should do it), fine, go to a tech school like DeVry, start making money and save it. Going to traditional 4 year programs for CS is an utter waste of time. Way too much change and like I said it's always about what you did in the last six months.
You're worried? (Score:4, Insightful)
You've been offered a job and you're worried about the pay? It's better to be worried about finding a job, which is the bit you've already achieved. America (and indeed Britain) is in that all-too-familiar position where the number of CS graduates outguns the number of CS vacancies, so you can't expect to be paid too much until your name is equated with redhotness. Worse still for CS grads (at least this is how it works in the UK) is that many employers in the IT sector don't want CS grads to fill their computing positions, they want mathematics, science or even classics grads who they see as having more problem solving skills. As one employer said to me when I was starting at University (physics, before you ask) it's easier to teach a thinker to program a computer than it is to teach a computer programmer to think.
So you start at the low end of the pay scale. That's not so bad. In a few years the waiter will still be earning the same salary when you're on a bit more.
Re:You're worried? (Score:5, Funny)
Wow! Who's bitter now?
Why should they? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it depends on a few things (Score:5, Insightful)
2) What will the workload be like? If this is a company that believes in supporting it's employee, a 40 hour work week, and low stress, that is a factor. Don't sell yourself short on quality of life, but realise that less work makes you less valuable and thus will pay less.
3) Benefits. Look at what the company offers you in other benefits, those all factor in too. If they pay your health insurance for you, that's something to factor in, it's not cheap. Same with other kinds of insurance. Make sure you are comparing the total amount you are compansated (as in how much they pay you and how much you'd have to pay for the benefits if they didn't) not just the amount you take home.
4) Vacation. What's their policy on that? If the company offers good amounts of off time, that's something that's nice. Also generally reduces your pay though.
5) Public or private? If you work a government job, it'll generally pay less than the private sector. The compensation is that most tend to have excellent benefits, plenty of vacation time, and little to no overtime.
So look at the area you'd be living in, what kind of buying power you'd have with your paycheck, and what they offer in additonal benefits that you'd need to purchase yourself if they didn't. Then decide if what they are offering you is reasonable.
Also consider what kind of learning experience it will be, what kind of industry connections it will give you, and what kind of advancement oppertunities you'll have. If a job pays less, but puts you in the position to advance quickly and to a high level, while learning valuable skills, it's probably worth it.
So don't sell yourself short, but don't get caught up in the dollar amount you take home.
in 1994 (Score:5, Funny)
In 1995, I was making 55K
2001, I was making $60 per hour
2002 60K per year
2004, 400 a week with unemployment.
The look on my wifes face when I told her we were going to have to move into one of her moms houses, priceless.
For everything else, there's Bahnglor express.
What's worse!!!!@ (Score:4, Funny)
What's worse is when employees look at your resume and say
"You're overqualified. Why do you want to work here."
My answer
"I would like to make my car payment. Where else am I going to live???
don't forget your own ideas (Score:5, Insightful)
therefore, within the span of your lifetime, there is much impact you can make on this world, personally, and of course, financially
so after you come home from your thankless soul-sucking underpaid 9-5 existence, don't forget to tinker with the very sparks of imagination which got you interested in computers in the first place
someone reading slashdot right now, either you, me, or someone else, will probably be making a contribution to mankind in the field of computer science which will forever alter humanity, and perhaps make that person fabulously rich... but that's an afterthought
your prime motivation should be happiness, not money
no six figure slary is worth self-hatred
don't give up on any of the things that got you interested in computers in the first place just because you can't seem to find your happiness in a cubicle
you will never be happy working for someone else, you will only be happy pursuing your own interests
so think of your job as something to keep your brain cells well-exercised, and something that keeps food in the refridgerator, and therefore you won't look to your salary as some end-all justification for your existence
your job will forever be little more than just a means to an ends, unless you yourself are deadset on making your life little more than what your employer decides you are worth, and that would be a sad day indeed
Waiting tables... (Score:5, Informative)
BTW and FYI: you're in a very competitive market right now. Many development jobs are going overseas and there are a lot of developers with a lot more experience than you have that are looking for work right now. Many have been out of work so long, they'd gladly take the meager offers you're getting. Consider yourself lucky and take an offer. If a better one comes along within 3 months, take it.
More than salaray to consider (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the money, remember the dot com days are over, and paying your bills while getting your career going is not a bad way to start in the "real world".
Software Development Magazine Survey (Score:4, Informative)
Starting salary for the following Co's, anyone? (Score:4, Interesting)
Does anyone know what the starting salary is at Cisco? HP (California site)? Intel? Microsoft? Sun? Consulting companies (IBM included)? I'd appreciate responses from anyone that knows... even anonymous responses!
Meanwhile, here are a few facts and figures I've gathered through some research. Can anyone confirm these numbers? Caveat lector, as these are _all_ from sources whose accuracy I cannot ascertain:
IBM pays about $55K on average, starting off. However, they have many sites, so it would vary.
HP (in Texas) pays about $50-55K starting for technical positions.
Accenture non-consulting roles start out in the mid/high 20's for technical positions, from what I've heard. On the bright side, these jobs are unlikely to be outsourced, because you can't get much cheaper than that!
I've also heard that Intel pays very well starting off. But I've been unable to get a number for them
Re:Starting salary for the following Co's, anyone? (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard that Intel pays a little more, but maybe not more than $60k.
It would really depend on how much experience you have, what is it that you are looking for, the area you seek to work in and your degree.
Experience/Domain Knowledge (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing that really most matters your experience and/or your domain knowledge. If nothing else "real world" experience implies that you're generally familiar with the tools used by development teams that you wouldn't necessarily have needed while you were in college - thinks like source control, and bug/change request systems that simply weren't important for the projects a lone student (or even a team of students) would have used. These tools and habits aren't necessarily difficult, but they do come with time.
Domain knowledge about general ins & outs, terminology, best practices etc. of an industry is also something that employers look for.
Keep in mind that unless you can prove you have either of these, perspective employers are looking at paying you and receiving limited returns whilst you acquire "on the job training".
PS. ...and no employers really don't value "keeping abreast of industry trends" (reading /., the Reg, &c)
Salary isn't your primary concern (Score:5, Insightful)
In short, as long as the salary offer isn't an obvious attempt to screw you (look at both your offers and also ask classmates with offers from other companies and see if they're within, say, a 10% margin), you should be OK. Dive in on your first job, learn everything you can, get started on that graduate degree. In two years take a look around and see if your salary isn't up to par. Go to your manager, make a case on all the fine work you've done, and see what they can do. If you get no action by the tiem you get the graduate degree, start shopping around.
my advice (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been out of school for 2 yrs, so some might disagree.....
Hold out for a job in an industry you want to be in. Pay is secondary unless you have kids and stuff - it's better to get your foot in the door somewhere that does interesting development on projects you want to work on.
If you take some job admin'ing windows boxes for the Arkansas Bureau of Indian Relations, it's easy to get pigeon-holed. Along comes a wifester, and suddenly its hard to uproot everything and take a risk with a cool startup or consulting firm.
My advice: don't worry about a few dollars, go out there and get the most interesting job you can, regardless of location. Go balls to the wall for a few years, learn your trade, and have a good time.
Interesting/hard jobs in technical fields generally pay good, but you will never be the best or make the best money unless you are excited and interested in getting out there and writing code.
here is what you need to do. (Score:4, Informative)
Go to your local employment dept.
They should have many programs to help you, like resume writing, interviewing techniques, how to negotiate, anf they are free.
You can also get a list of average salaries for your area, as well as have networking opportunities.
Also, decide what is important to you:
What your are programming
or
the company you work for.
Now, lets say what you want is a large company, where you will work a pretty regular scedule, 40-50 hours a week.
Call the HR dept. for the appropriet company, and ask for an Informational interview' with a manager in the appropriet dept., or with an HR person who deals with the IT staff.
When you get one, show up.
you are not interviewing for a job..directly.
Ask questions like, what skills are they loking for. what would a Jr. programmer expect to make, there turnover rate, etc.
Then send them a thank you card.
Follow up a month later.
If this doesn't get you an interview, it will at least give you information you can use to direct your career.
Whats Open Source Experience worth? (Score:5, Interesting)
programmer vs. software engineer (Score:5, Informative)
If you search for a job as a software engineer (which you should be prepared for given a 4 year cs degree), the starting salary should be much higher.
I've recently interviewed for two positions at the same company. The software engineering position paid signifigantly better than the programmer and one of the recruiters and I joked about the likelyhood that the programmer would eventually get outsourced.
This seems to be a pretty common thread in American companies. Programmers, in the view of corporate America, add lines of code. Software engineers add value, and are much harder to repalce and ofter make much more. Who are you going to replace? Someone who writes codes ``head-down'' all day, or someone who designs the product, meets with customers, documents and eventually programmes?
$70 bucks a week (Score:5, Funny)
Get Thee a Portfolio (Maybe) (Score:5, Interesting)
But I digress. The point is it is extremely hard to tell how proficient a programmer is by simply talking to them. OTOH, five minutes browsing their source code tells you exactly what they know, and how they use that knowledge. Beware though; if you didn't actually learn anything in school, that too will show through like a sore thumb - if this is the case, avoid the source code and try to get the interviewer to talk about his kids.
Pick something random, peculiar, or fun. Try to do something that exercises all the areas you feel you are proficient in. Then write a simple program - a couple thousand lines is more than enough. If you're writing OO and use UML, consider adding that to the package. Same with unit tests, flowcharts, build scripts, or whatever else are the artifacts of your development process.
It has worked in my favour on job interviews, and I always appreciate when a candidate that I'm interviewing has something to show.
Wage distribution has changed (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically things got out of control between 98 and 2001 as venture capital flowed into companies that were required to grow quickly by the venture capital. All of the good talent was hired quickly, and then some of the average talent was hired. All that was left was the basic low-no skill talent.
So, there was a situation in which it became difficult to find low-average talent, and our standard economic models tell us that when demand goes up and supply stays relatively stable (it takes a little bit of time to supply new IT/Developers) that the price per unit will go up.
And that's what happened. The market tried to correct, everybody came flooding into the valley (as evidenced by Traffic Jams, zero rental inventory and huge monthly rentals) and, in order to have any chance of holding onto employees, companies started increasing salaries.
Good employees had great salaries and average employees had salaries that they would never normally be able to earn as companies scrambled to bring on staff. Salary inversions happened all of the time as an employee who started at $50K/year doing desktop support was making $20K/year less than a guy who started a year later. Most companies leveled these off, bringing up the $50K/year employee to $70K which created even more pricing pressure on employees.....
And then the Bust in 2001 when Venture capital dried up, the stock market basically collapsed. Public companies could no longer do secondaries to raise capital and Private companies, well, they grew very, very slowly if at all.
Companies laid off employees by the thousands and people fled the valley. (As evidenced by vast rental inventories, much lower traffic on 880 and 101 and a 30-40% drop in the cost of rental housing). Salaries in some cases dropped (HP/Microsoft dropped by approx 10% in the valley) and in almost every case froze for several years for existing employees.
For new employees, it was (and still is) a totally different situation - Basically for every IT job there are about 100-200 applicants. Only the good ones get hired and their salaries are at a competitive level. A solid IT Desktop Support employee at a mid-level company can expect to make 96-97 salaries in the valley ($50K-$60K). Sysadmins with 8-10 years experience are making $70-$90K. Everything has cooled off and the employer is in the drivers seat again.
The good news is that Great Engineers (IT/Software Developers) are _always_ impossible to find in the valley, good/bad/otherwise. You basically have to steal them from another company in order to hire them as they don't typically come directly out of school. Their salaries haven't dropped at all (as their companies held onto them - Great employees are always the last to be laid off) at their current salary, or they made a lateral move (equal salary) to a new company if their previous company went out of business.
What this means for you - If you love the business ignore the salary - it means nothing in the first 3-4 years of your career. Absolutely nothing. Work for free if you have to. Focus only on three things:
o The Quality of the Job - What will you be doing, will you have the resources to do it, will you be given lots of authority and opportunity to do new things.
o The Quality of the Company. Does it treat it employees ethically, Is it well financed (!!!), does it have great management, do you have highly skilled coworkers who will cross train you/develop you.
o The Quality of the Opportunity - Is this company in a hot space, are they developing a great product, are they first movers in a cool new technology that will become a standard.
Everything else will take care of itself if you are passionate, skilled and focussed. Don't worry about negotiating/looking for a great wage/etc... That will take care of itself. I promise you.
Even if you do make less than a waiter for the first 18 months or so.
Not that you said it was, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
I make good money as a programmer, but I started low ($30K in late '98). Though at the time that was actually a raise, the main reason I did it was because I just loved coding, solving problems in a practical way, increasing company efficiency, etc. Because of that I got promoted pretty quickly, and hired away once people who knew me needed someone with the skills.
I'm not saying I'm great -- but I do love what I do, and that is why I'm pretty good at it. I've never met any good coders who didn't have some degree of love for the work itself.
In other words, I'd probably still be doing this if I got paid less than a waiter. Which is why I'm paid more
Cheers.
Just starting now? (Score:5, Insightful)
"entry level software engineer" (Score:5, Insightful)
It really sucks right now... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, since you are already graduating, I hope you have work experience otherwise, it's going to be another 3-5 years before you can even hope of getting a job that makes those 4-5 years in school worth it.
I've got a year and a half left (till my BS) and I already have 3 years of experience in computational software development and 5 years for systems administration (mostly parallel development and design and deployment of beowulf systems). I got lucky in high school and grabbed an intership at a local manufacturer. Worked for their IT department doing piddly things, however, the entry on my resume and some dumb luck made future Jobs come to me.
I feel bad if you are getting this news too late. A friend of mine already graduated last semester and had little to no work experience. The best offer he got was an internship (internship??? the guy already graduated!) with IBM for around 12 bucks an hour to audit web code.
To answer your question: If you have no work experience, CNN claims that the average out-of-college CS degree holder will get a starting pay of around $48,000 a year. I call bullshit on that one and have a more conservative estimate of around $35,000 if you get lucky (it greatly depends on your location). At this point, you should just take what you can get and keep your eyes open for better opportunities. At this point, someone else is probably right behind you in the H.R. line, with his/her CS degree, drooling for that $10 an hour job.
If you have good work experience and have worked in a specialized field (not systems administration), the salary possibilities are endless if you know where to look. Accept nothing less than $50,000 or $60,000 if you know you're good, you have the experience to back it up, and you have sufficient funds to go a month or two without a job.
well (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're not good, say under the 75th percentile in skill, this will not work well, and it will be best at the 90th+. But if you're good, think about this.
Paying your dues... (Score:5, Insightful)
But the sun is shining through - I am currently tendering more than one offer in the $45/hour range, and the contract is short enough that I can still get more education starting in the fall if the sun isn't still shining.
Moral of the story: Take what you can get. You need a paycheck so you can get situated and out of the college lifestyle. Eventually, a real opportunity will knock.
The subject says it all (Score:5, Insightful)
The company I work for has outsourced some of it's programming requirement. This has indirectly sorted the software engineers from the programmers in house. For a typical project we now carry out requirements analysis, an iterative design approach resulting in a detailed model and documentation and often framework code. The then whole thing goes to our outsources so they can do the boring bit, filling in the blanks.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:5, Funny)
I know a lot of college grads that prove you wrong Sir.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me be the first to say (Score:5, Funny)
*A curse on the first person who replies with a link that has the letter c and x anywhere near the word goat.
Re:Let me be the first to say (Score:4, Funny)
No, really. This isn't just a ploy to get you to visit it anyway!
Really!
Re:Tough to say... but it aint what it used to be (Score:5, Informative)
Grrr.
Without the Amazon-referer whoring:
Re:HS Graduate (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering that professors can often get grad students to work for free, it looks like someone in that university is pulling strings and doing one of their friends a favor by hiring you (a HS student) for pay. Take full advantage of the opportunity.
As for the original poster talking about entry level programming jobs: "Whatever the market will bear is fair".
Jobs are like relationships. It's always easier to get a new job offer when you've already got an existing job -- even a crappy one.
If you're working at Foocorp, a hiring manager at Barcorp knows you must be worth something (or Foocorp wouldn't have hired you) - and he also knows that you must be interested in Barcorp (because you've already got a job at Foocorp, so you're interviewing for reasons that go beyond "I'm unemployed and need food").
Same thing applies in relationships -- ChickFoo obviously digs your stuff, and that makes your stuff more interesting to ChickBar. (No, I'm not gonna let myself write that as "BarChick" :)
Re:HS Graduate (Score:5, Funny)
So what you're saying is that women are like evil hiring managers?
Re:Average range (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Join the military and get into an intelligence specialty. If you plan on working with computers after you get out, I suggest Navy or Air Force though I know a great sys admin who was a Marine.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
3. Earn 35% more (at least) once you get out and you don't even need to have any skills or a degree. Your job will be safe from outsourcing, there's a thousand Beltway Bandits begging for your resume, and headhunters are tracking down kids straight out of the military (as long as they have a ticket). It's like the dot com bubble!
Intelligence in the military (AF) (Score:4, Informative)
If you do want to be an intel geek, go officer. They have a pretty awesome responsibility, and plus- you're an officer! (Better pay, more of an opportunity to actually use your critical thinking and analysis skills) The AF Specialty Code (AFSC) for that is 14N (that'll come in handy when talking to a recruiter)
If you want to be enlisted (perish the thought with a college degree!!), here's a brief description of the fields:
1N0 - Briefers. These guys have to know a ton, and do some fairly cool planning stuff.
1N1 - Imagery (what's that blob mean??)
1N2 - Morse-Code... I don't reccommend this job, as it's being phased out, and just lost it's entire signing bonus
1N3 - Linguist - learn to speak Arabic, Chineese, or a plethora of other ("enemy") languages
1N4 - Intel Analyist... I'm not really sure what these guys do, but I'm told it's important!
1N5 - "Electronic Signals Explotation Operative"... This is what I do- basically the study/explotation of RADAR systems
1N6 - "Systems Security".... like reading peoples' email and then ratting them out for violating security proceedures?? That's what these people do!
In short, About.com [about.com] is a great resource to use when thinking about joining the military... There's a lot of "minor" things recruiters leave out, so be sure to do your homework first!
Furthermore, when you're waiting for a clearance, expect to wait a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. Especially if it's a Top Secret one. Some bases will let you work with an Interim (temporary) clearance, and some won't... If the base you end up at is in the latter category, expect to be waiting over a year, doing nothing related to your job.
-Jokerghost
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:4, Funny)
I think I'd rather struggle to get a job, that is, IF I have to struggle...