How Do You 'Vet' an Employer? 59
Not-to-desperate asks: "There is lots of info around on interviewing when hiring but what about the other way around? What do you look for in an employer? Are the any 'minimum requirements' that should be met? Obviously if you haven't got a job at all, getting hired is the main criteria, but what if you're jumping ship so to speak? I'm thinking of stuff like better salary, work conditions, type of projects, possibility of on the job training, and so on."
Define you priorities (Score:5, Informative)
Choose from wide array of things like good team to work with, free coffee in the office, paid vacation, general atmosphere, opportunity for advancement, trip re-imbrusement policies, overtime policies, sick leaves, vacation packages, perks like gym memberships, availability of good food nearby, company kitchen, dress code, stock options, medical insurance, dental packages, etc. Ask about your top three priorities directly during the interview, when the HR person or manager asks "Do you have any questions for us?" This will tell them that you have thought certain things through, and will also signalize that those are some things you care about, so it must be important to you.
Or just think about the three-four things that were awesome about the previous employer or other companies on the market (like Google allows you to spend one day on your own projects, and they allow pets in the building, Microsoft buys its employees gym memberships, and I think at some point they were also buy Costco cards).
Re:Define you priorities (Score:5, Insightful)
Look the company up, if it is public (traded on NASDAQ or whatever) you can find their quarterly reports and get a feel for their cashflow. If they are burning $5M a quarter on income of $1.3M a quarter, they are going to burn out.
Is it a company you would be proud to admit working for to your friends / family / peers / random people?
Are you going to be able to keep your skills current?
Is the company actively outsourcing anything right now? If so, remember that your division may be next.
Publicly held or private company? Too many company leaders do stupid shit 'for the good of the stockholders' in order to tweak quarterly reports, destroying the company in the process. See also : HP, SCO, Kodak, Tyco, Enron
The last quarter they had layoffs, what was the sum of the executive bonuses?
Cubes or offices? The answer of course is 'cube' but watch their faces when they answer to get a feel for exactly how important your position will be within the company. If you sense distain, a certain sneering
Describe during the interview the unGodly 120 hour weeks you put in during the release cycle of your last project. If they aren't impressed, they already expect all their developers to work 80 hour weeks - and expect their devs to be thankful for the opportunity.
Re:Define you priorities (Score:2)
Not true. If the company is a startup, they are probably taking time to get things up and running.
Re:Define you priorities (Score:1)
The days of being able to raise huge amounts of capital to "take time to get things up and running" are gone.
Re:Define your priorities (Score:2)
Good question. Right after I graduated from college, I was doing temp work. I was depressed because I didn't have a "real" job and whenever someone asked me the dreaded question, "What do you do?" I felt like a loser when I answered "I'm temping" or "I'm looking for a job right now." So one day I went to a job fair determined to get a job, any job, as long as it was full-time. One interview later I was
Re:Define you priorities (Score:1)
My only req... (Score:2)
I dont need him to get any more ideas on how to make my life miserable..
Re:My only req... (Score:2)
My boss doesn't read BOFH, but he does read Dilbert. At one point, he forwarded me a URL of a mean stunt that was being pulled on the boss and told me to not get any ideas.
Fortune's top 1000 (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, also forgot to add that Fortune compiles a yearly list of best companies to work for [fortune.com]. It looks like they require you to pay to access the articles (like anyone will pony up 5 bucks just to read a single article having no idea about its quality), but get a newsstand copy, check one out at the library, or if you're a student, visit your Careers office.
Fortune also explains why a given company is the best to work for, so writing down a list of things you'd like to see in your potential employer would be helpful for the future.
Re:Fortune's top 1000 (Score:2)
Also, it takes only one scandal to take a company down the shitter.
Re:Fortune's top 1000 (Score:2)
Here's some things you can do.. (Score:5, Informative)
Ask to speak to someone who would be your peer at the company. Find out what they think.
Search Fuckedcompany [fuckedcompany.com]
Onorus drug testing policies are a bad sign.
What do the restrooms look like?
Re:Here's some things you can do.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember hearing somewhere that the best indicator of how good an employer is is based on how happy their janitorial staff is. If the people who clean up shit are happy, then everybody else is bound to be happy too. I dunno how it would look at an interview if you asked to schedule an appointment with a janitor to discuss the company, though...
Re:Here's some things you can do.. (Score:2)
Interview Questions (Score:4, Informative)
One question that could be asked, Can I go meet the people I would be working with?
It may or may not fly, but talking to the existing employees of the company sounds to me like the best, most direct way to find out anything you really need to know.
We know what you are doing: (Score:5, Funny)
Ahhh. So the real purpose of this interview is to try and get free plane tickets to Mumbai....
Re:Interview Questions (Score:2)
1. actually Liking the People I work with.
This on cannot be determined ahead of time onless you have inside info, like a friend who worked at the company.
2. Having Chalanging work that tests your abilities. (look at the job description)
3. being respected by my boss.
at my last job I had #2 and 1/2 of # 1.
So I quit....
now I have a job that gives me none of the above...
dam...I suck
Re:Interview Questions (Score:1)
1. No math questions.
Re:Interview Questions (Score:2)
yah what can I say....other then I should have used the "preview"...
oh well I was at work and had stuff to do...
Re:Easy (Score:1, Funny)
East Job (Score:3, Funny)
Is this [usda.gov] far enough east for you?
Ask the head hunter (Score:4, Informative)
The bulk of it boils down to getting to know people that work where you want to work, and keep your dignity intact.
Pick your battles when you can (Score:3, Interesting)
As I have been hired and laid off far too many times over the last couple of years, I have noticed that most companies really aren't terribly flexible on what they offer in terms of compensation. There is some, but not as much as is hoped. So I have taken a different approach and made known work place expectations - something as trivial as allowing food/drink at your desk or soemthing a bit more technical like making dual monitors a condition of employment (no dualies no work).
A lot of PHB's and such can make small deals like that - it doesn't require them to get HR and Accounting and who knows what other groups involved and they are much more willing to pursue those requests as a result.
It is all part of negotiating...
vet (Score:4, Informative)
Re:vet (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure he means to neuter (or spay) the company he joins, so 'vet' is properly quoted since he is using its slang meaning.
-Adam
Talk to the employees... (Score:3, Insightful)
Try and find some employees of the potential employer that you can talk to informally over a beer. You'll get the real poop that way...
Re:Talk to the employees... (Score:1)
(2) Beer works better than soda.
As cliche as lists are on Slashdot, here's another (Score:4, Interesting)
Next, make a list of employment opportunities you have a good chance of obtaining. Don't be afraid to look outside the box. There are lots of companies who want to hire you, but have poorly worded want ads. The ad "Looking for filing clerk" is just crying out for some data shuffling, web based interfacing, database sorting application that your wizardly skills are well suited for.
Now make a matrix with rows representing aspects of a job you'd like, and a column for each job. Score those that you know now, and call ahead (random disgruntled employees are great resources) for those that aren't specified on the web or in the ad. Don't forget to include things like 401K, health care, smoking area, bonuses, severance, location and relocation, etc.
Take a good look at it and either come up with a formula to calculate a company's 'coolness' factor or just eyeball it and give each a score.
Now, and this is the critical part, throw it in the trash, remind yourself what your budget is, and have a good laugh. Maybe joke with your coworker about it, "I'm such a geek, I not only thought I could get a job with another company that's better than this one, I actually created a spreadsheet! HAH!" Then nervously look around to see if the boss was listening before going back to moving the mouse whenever you hear footsteps.
Seriously, though, the best jobs I've had were based solely on the supervisor I had. The only equations I can count on are:
Any project, bad boss --> painful work.
Any project, good boss --> enjoyable work.
The difference, I've found, is that a good boss stands back and lets me create. The act of creation is what's important to me. A good boss not only knows that there's several ways of accomplishing something, they won't step into the process and become the creative entity - they allow you to create and implement.
Of course, this won't apply if you are a soulless code monkey.
The best advice I can give after making sure the job meets your basic needs (stretches you a bit, is in an area you are familair with or would like to become familiar, meets financial, health, retirement, etc needs) is to interview directly with the person who will be surpervising you and then see if you can chat with 2-4 people who you'll be working with or who work for your possible boss.
Good luck!
-Adam
What is important to you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Figure out what your short and long term goals are and think about what career tracks are consistent with those. Then you can work on finding a company that can put you where you want to be in a year or 5 years, etc... (even if it isn't with the same company).
From my experience, people make a huge difference. So look for a company that hires the kind of people you would want to work with. Easier said than done, but talking to people who work there is usually a good start.
A Few Things I Do (Score:4, Insightful)
Another thing I find important is to ask to see where you will be sitting, it may seem trivial, but if you see that you are going to be sitting in a small room with five other developers all using 13 inch monitors it will tell you a lot about a company.
Stock Options! (Score:2, Funny)
It's (Score:1)
Get it right.
for the purist GNU/F/OSS-Ball.
One of the few I RAN away from (Score:4, Funny)
The big thing is to get a feel for whether or not the company is even going to be ther elong term.
In 2000, I was sent to a site as a consultant. Within a few weeks it became really apparent how screwed up they were. I got out of there while I could control the exit. A year later, they laid off over 2000 people (which accounted for more than the entire rest of the IT staffs in the rest of the city). Three years later, adn the IT in the area still isn't back up to what it was.
One I always ask... (Score:1)
Re:One I always ask... (Score:1)
I've met people who didn't know much in the interview and it showed when they couldnt tell me what OS or video card they had (just a name, not a model number) and I've known people that have clusters and a netapp in their basement. Guess who got the job?
It's not important to tell me each and everything about your computer at home, but give me *something* to get a feel for your geek level.
Primary consideration: (Score:2, Funny)
"Cool! I'll take it!"
define vet (Score:2)
I like the idea someone else had: Ask if you can talk to the people you'd be working with. Admittedly they won't give you 100% of the pictu
If you're a programmer... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:If you're a programmer... (Score:4, Informative)
If you are a programmer, rate your prospective employer on the Joel test [joelonsoftware.com].
You agree or disagree with a lot of things that Joel has to say, but IMHO this test tells you a lot about what your life as a software developer will be like. If there is no spec, no schedule, no bug database, no testers and no source control then do you really want to work there?
What don't you like about your current job? (Score:4, Insightful)
Be real (Score:2, Informative)
I use these five questions to keep myself honest when considering to take a job or to do a business deal:
1. Do both sides gain by doing the deal?
2. Can the employer/buyer deliver and can I?
2b. Will I enjoy the job?
3. Do the people I am negotiating with have long term control of the deal I am negotiating?
4. What is the reputation of the employer/buyer (D&B, google, yahoo boards are great places to look)?
5. Do I like the people involved and do I like the organization?
If the answers are yes to all of the
Years ago I came up with a list of 5 criteria... (Score:5, Informative)
- The People/Culture
- Who am I going to be working with? What are they like? Do they have lives outside of work, or do they exist in some company-subsidized virtual reality? (I once interviewed at Dow Jones, and they told me in glowing terms of their company-sponsored sports and all that... thanks, but, um, I have a life, and it's not about a company.) Are they knowledgeable, clueful (yes, those two are different) and friendly?
- The Work
- What am I going to be doing? After almost 15 years of this stuff, I don't want totally trained-monkey work, but at the same time, I've served my time in the tech-support and sysadmin (and other) levels of hell, and like to have some time where I'm not "on call."
- The Business
- What does the organization do, and how does it do it? Does it do things, and do them in ways, that I can believe in, or at least support? Less than a decade ago, I was the webmaster for the majority of the casinos in Atlantic City, as well as several others across the country. It was "exciting" work, to be sure, but I had a hard time knowing that my salary was largely derived from the social security checks of blue-haired slot-stuffing (oh my, that sounds Freudian) grannies. On the flip side, I once worked for free for a year to fight spam.
- The Commute
- In the early days of the ISP industry, I once had a commute of 3.5 hours, each direction, to work at a helldesk. Since then, I've done much better, thank goodness. These days it's usually 5 or 10 minutes with decent scenery and ocean views, and it's unlikely that I'd ever go for an hour-each-way 5-days-a-week run like a lot of people have.
- The Pay
- How's the compensation package, overall? Is the wage or salary enough to pay my bills, save a bit, and get the occasional shiny! new toy? How are the benefits? Medical, dental and optical? 401(k)? Employer match? Profit-sharing?
I've used these five criteria to evaluate potential new jobs relative to current ones, and in cases where I have multiple offers, to compare them. Usually, to get me to change jobs, the new one has to be significantly better than my current one in at least a couple categories, and can't be worse than it in any. In retrospect, I've still made some decisions that I now question, but I don't tend to find myself in jobs that suck in every possible way.If you are a developer... (Score:3, Interesting)
The worst company I was at had a development process that consisted of the following steps: "code like hell", "put code into production immediately", "when code didn't work and everything blew up, stay late until things were working again". Needless to say, we didn't have things like bug tracking, source control, sane schedules. I only stayed there 8 months until I found a better job, but those 8 months seemed like an eternity. It was the most miserable experience I've ever had at work.
You may ask why I didn't try to stay and make the process better. That, of course, is easier said than done. Anyone who dared question the prevailing wisdom (or lack thereof) was branded as a "loose cannon" or "not a team player". The environment was totally dysfunctional and not receptive to change. This was a smaller company where the decision making power was in the hands a small few, and unless they bought into what you were trying to do, you had no hope of succeeding.
Once I got another job offer, I took it and ran far away. I didn't care where I was going because I figured that any place had to be better. I even took a $10,000/year pay cut to do it. Of course, I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you are really desparate. Luckily the company I ended up with was a lot more sane, so it worked out for the best. Plus within a year I had proved myself enough so that I was able to get back to my original salary level.
I should add that the company from hell is no longer in business (shocking, huh?).
Some of the more overlooked but telling aspects... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of the more subtle things, imho:
1.) Benefits/cost of benefits: Companies that offer "benefits" but have you shoulder the cost of 80% of them often reeks of a company that is just putting up appearances in all areas, and is generally cheap, or struggling.
2.) The kitchen, or perhaps lack thereof. Are there lots of pay vending machines, even for coffee, or worse, water? This again reeks of a company that doesnt really care a whole lot about their worker's happiness or isnt doing well enough to go to price club and buy a vat of coffee or chips.
3.) The office. Cube farms w/ managers in corner offices w/ the doors closed? Do the cubicles/whatever appear to be layed out in a way to encourage the flow of ideas, or just for managers to keep tabs on employees. Is it painted in flat white cost-cutting paint that has needed a fresh coat for the past 5 years? Im not saying look for wood paneled walls, but it should be easy to spot whether or not the office was designed to be a nice place where you would want to spend your time, or a factory line meant to spit out code. Check out the machines- do they have old 17 inch monitors on the fritz, or do most developers have nice 22" monitors w/ newish machines.
Are there signs posted about "procedures" and "reminders" to put waste paper in the proper receptacles and that office supplies are meant for in office use only, and that employees are not to take more than 10 minute coffee breaks, and to please be considerate and make sure your coffee mugs are cleaned and out of the sink before you leave at the end of the day... etc? Ive seen this... it reeks of low level managers and admins struggling to flex any muscle they have- any requests for favors or exceptions to policies will most likely get stonewalled by some bitter under appreciated admin. Excessive procedure reminders reeks of micro-managing types that will never let you make a decision.
4.) The general 'aura' of the office. Are there people grumbling in corner's or are people generally chipper and interested in what they're doing. Do people have "personality" items on their desk- IE pictures, nerf balls w/ the company logo on them, brain teaser puzzles (especially in a techie office) like rubik's cubes, etc, or do they appear to have a "I need to get back to work" look to them.
5.) Do they bring someone from the trenches in to speak to you alone and tell you how they like the company? This is usually a good sign. Do your coworkers and managers seem like good guys? I went from a company of very cool people, to a much better "job" where my coworkers are generally very lame and anti-social. I went from doing a close to weekly happy hour w/ my coworkers to close to zero social interaction both outside and inside the office. It sucks more than you may think, never really having more than general polite hows the kids conversations w/ your coworkers at lunch (or on the flip side, it can be a life changing experience to make good lifelong type friends w/ your coworkers).
Re:Some of the more overlooked but telling aspects (Score:2)
> to flex any muscle they have
So true. Nice post.
The only thing you forgot was this: is there a stack of cracked and faded white binders full of 3 year old specifications on every developer's bookshelf, or are they full of O'Reilly books, Knuth, and Game Programming Gems?
Do they think One Size Fits All? (Score:1, Interesting)
I now have to violate company IT policy in order to get my job done, because they have a 'one size fits all' policy to IT. One example of this is that I need two NICs in my computer in order to allow me to develop a propietory ethernet packet driver to an embedded device and access the corporate LAN at the same time.
Company IT policy states that any machine with two NICs is a router, and r
Re:Do they think One Size Fits All? (Score:2, Interesting)
Ethernet was banned. Only Token Ring was allowed. We had to spend $$$$ on a Tolken Ring card for our workstation (that had built-in ethernet).
Free software (i.e. GNU etc.) was banned because it was "Shareware" and "all Shareware has viruses." That one got ignored. Luckily an employment opportunity in another company came along...
Where do you live? (Score:2)
To be honest this is where the job hunter has an advantage over the employer. If you do not like a company you can leave. If a company does not like you they have to pay unemployment if they just fire you without reason.
Interview questions say a lot (Score:2)
The kinds of questions they ask will tell you a lot about the company. If they ask a lot of pointless questions like, "why are manhole covers round", that tells you something. A company that thinks pointless interview questions are helpful is a company that thinks you'll enjoy pointless busy work.
Unless you like being a Dilbert, avoid these people.
Lack of mutual trust and respect (Score:2)
Dig for the dirt (Score:2)
Thanks to the Google Groups, a Usenet posting can
act as the "atomic bomb" of employment relations. Web pages come and