Moving Up the IT Ladder in a Poor Economy? 892
Andy asks: "As almost anyone who joined the IT industry on the tail end of the Dot-Com boom can tell you, trying to move up in the industry for the past couple of years has been like jogging up-wind in a hurricane. I have sent resumes to countless numbers of employers only to still be working in the same $13/hr. low-end outsource support job as when I started (and $13/hr. doesn't get you too far in Boston these days). Learning more and more languages/technologies/protocols has merely resulted in a larger skill set on my resume, with pretty much the same level of experience, and no new interviews. Has anyone else been able to get out of this sort of slump, either during this economic slump or a previous one? Should I just continue the path of learning as much as I can and applying for jobs? Would getting a cert (maybe an RHCE or some Cisco certs) help? Would it be worth it to get a degree in MIS or CS?"
It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Informative)
I doubt many employers want a mediocre jack-of-all-trades kind of guy. You're better off selecting one or two specific areas and focusing on getting experience within it. Most of the technicly adept and smart employers know that tech certifications are pretty much a bunch of BS, but some still require it if you want to get your foot in the door. The same goes for degrees. Either way, couldn't hurt to have it.
And btw, FP bitches!
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
Emphasis mine.
An RHCE is worth more than a Linux+ because its a damn site harder.
A CCNA is worth... well.. not much... except as the prerequirement for a CCNP. An MSCE is fine if you want to support windows, but the combination of an MSCE, A+ and CCNA isn't really that great. You are better off investing all your time and effort into one stream. Generalists are dime a dozen.
Note that if you are a support engineer, these certs are good for you. If you want to code, get a degree.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
The CCNA has no prereqs. Its the entry level cert.
The CCNP and CCDA require the CCNA
The CCDP requires a CCDA.
Cisco won't send you the certificate if you don't fulfill the prereqs.
Learn yet another language - Hindi (Score:3, Insightful)
A working knowledge of the local language where much of the outsourcing is going couldn't hurt. Yes, I know most of India's IT shops speak english as their primary language, but I suspect farmers in southern california are at an advantage if they speak Spanish too. Knowledge of whatever is spoken in Bejing or Bangalore is valuable in corporate IT today.
And the parent article wrote. "An RHCE is worth more than a Linux+ because its a damn site
Re:Learn yet another language - Hindi (Score:5, Insightful)
> generalists, not specialists.
I think most managers are useless.
A good manager is a specialist... in management.
To be a good IT manager, you have to let the al lot of the tech stuff go. Its not like "hey, I know a bit of windows and a bit of cisco and a bit of Solaris" its "I know how to define goals and how to best use the people and resource I have to achieve those goals".
This does not mean getting the whip out.
I was cynical about the value of an MBA until I started one. There is a lot of sound management theory that is actually based on real things like psychology and mathematics. It not a "science", but its consistent.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know. Getting an MCSE means that you learn the Microsoft way of doing things. Look at how well they do things. I prefer good old fashioned practical experience to certification. When you go for an MCSE, you learn things in the lab, which really doesn't translate to real world experience and expectations.
SiO2
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
generalists are a dime to dozen. Probably you are right
In 10 years it is irrelevant wether you are a MSCE(what ever that is) or a CCNP(what ever that is) or a A+ or a CCNA(what ever that is).
Do you know:
a) CORBA
b) SQL
c) UML
d) Java and/or C++
e) assembler (regardless what proc)
f) J2EE/SOAP/an OO data base
g) CVS or an other revision controll system
h) RUP/XP/SCRUM (regardless what)
i) COCOMO/FPA or any other
Do you have any clue about systems architecture?
Well, some people might call that a "generalist". I call it a basic education in Software Engineering.
Frankly:
1) I would try to get any job which you find interesting. Put it on your resume as further reference for your next job after that one.
2) if you lack money I would ask your parents/friends for a loan and try to follow 1)
In the long run nothing is more revarding, than a general education about EVERYTHING.
Computers, CS, programming, is not just programming in your 1st language you met in school
angel'o'sphere
P.S. I would never hire a specialist except probably for a decent DBA.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
Amen to that. When I see people with 5-10 yrs experience doing one type of work, I run. This typically means that they either can't or won't learn new things. I've been a tester for a diverse set of projects, but there are others in my group who have been working on the same set of technologies for 10 years. Guess who understands the company better? Guess who is more employable (especially outside of telecomm, where I currently work)? Yep, me. I have a lot of knowledge and I've proven that I can and will learn and improve.
So to the question at hand. My advice is do something to show you want to do more than what you are doing now. All you have proven is that you can handle a $13/hr support job. Fine, I have no problem hiring you to do that for me. But you want more. If I were interviewing you, I would want to know what job do you want and what have you done to prepare yourself for it. With the way support is being outsourced, you can't expect to stay in that field and make more money. You need to do _something_ to move yourself where you want to go. Certs? Degree? Depends on what you want to do. But if you aren't willing to go get some of the easy certs how would I, as a hiring manager, know that you will really stretch yourself at my company. I've seen a lot of resumes and everybody with a few years of experience can list lots of technologies, even if they don't really know them. You have to do something to prove you are different.
I personally think a degree is the way to go. It gives you the background you need for other things and shows you are willing to work hard to improve yourself. It is the key to most of the higher paying jobs out there. Without it you will always be chasing after the latest certificate.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Insightful)
That's different from saying you've got experience in Analysis. Design, Team leader stuff. etc.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
I see so much potential for programmers, it is unreal. I look into the void and see a major shortage of applications for many industries that run on Linux. I have been searching for many, many months, and have not found any of the software I need to change the network to a *nix environment. I don't even care what flavor: Linux, BSD, OSX, whatever. SAPs suite only runs on Windows, and they don't want to support Linux as a Windows file server. Many calls to IBM have resulted in dead end leads. Oracle is just too much for this job, and slightly out of budget for only a 4 year license (and we have a fairly liberal budget).
I hear alot about skilz and such, but most small to medium business owners care about the results, not the methods. Often, you have to be able to fill more than one pair of shoes to get in. One way is with the ability to produce/demonstrate some software that will address some problem they have. Desperately. Business owners need solutions. We need software. We need a reason to fully embrace Linux. We want to. And we can pay fairly for it, and for extra support. But we can't if we can't the software to run the business to begin with.
I can't say what the solution is, but Linux desperately need commercial programmers to succeed, and I know there are lots of people willing to pay for it. I am one of them. It seems there just HAS to be lots of opportunity for a programmer in this environment. The economy is not bad. It WAS bad, and its getting better fast. Some industries and/or companies didn't really have a recession. They saw growth every year for 10 years or more. Even new startups need software, and MS is so expensive for a small network (think 20 to 40), that GNU/Linux can compete if it has the right applications. None of the licensing headaches, get to use older hardware, more stable, easy to customize, much easier to administer. Yes, we believe you, we already use Linux for routers and web servers. Now give us the biz apps. Here, have some money.
Nothing would make me happier than being able to say "Yes, this is exactly the software I need. I will gladly pay you your asking price, and full support as well.". Everything out there is either too small and simple, or too much for a company with under 50 employees. There simply IS opportunity out there. Now would be a good time for some visionary capitalist to finance it and make themselves rich in the process. Once Linux becomes the dominant OS and bgates is irrelavent, we will need someone new to kick around anyway.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Insightful)
Spending money on certs is a waste. Spending money on a real education is smart.
I couldn't agree more! Get a real degree.
I know I certainly wouldn't high someone "up the ladder" without a minim
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm thoroughly convinced this is a stupid attitude to take, but it might just be my experience.
I couldn't count on both hands and both feet the number of people who have tried to tell me that the way they do something is better. I ask them where they learned "their way", and they say they saw it in a book or some teacher told them. Then, they do it, and it doesn't work very well. They ask me where I learned my way, and I tell them: I screwed it up a bunch of times until I got it right - experience.
There are benefits to a degree, of course. If they have good marks and all that from a good school, you know they were a studious worker and kept priorities straight and they're well-rounded. However, when it comes right down to it, 8 years of theory packed in and put up against 8 years of solid experience are no match. Eight years of good experience, with or without prior education, will mop the floor with theory.
I think hiring "lower" jobs on degree is fine. Hiring higher jobs on degree is stupid if you let it become a major obstacle to people who may have a ton of experience, but no degree.
And no, I don't have a degree, but I have experience. Factor that in to my credibility on this statement as you see fit.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
Or "perhaps"... have you ever considered the possibility that the explanation is over your head? Perhaps... that you might need to spend four years studying the theory in order to "get" the explanation? What, exactly, do you think we were doing for the four years we spent getting our degrees? Do you think you're so infinitely smarter than we are that you can grasp in a fifteen-minute overview concepts that we spent four years just learning the basics of? And the funny thing is... if you respond to this, you'll probably respond in indignation, with no clue as to why I find this attitude so insulting. (Don't worry, though - the "sum up the knowledge you've spent your life attaining in a 30-minute overview" attitude is common - very prevalent among management).
Usually, the reason the book or the teacher told them to do it that way has to do with increased flexibility, better resistance to change, better memory management, faster processing, etc. These are things that you don't learn by trial and error alone. What's that you say? Memory management and speed optimization is a waste of time? Processors are so fast that it's not worth saving a couple thousand clock cycles? Memory is so cheap you can just use it as you need it? Portability is for canoes? Yeah, I've probably spent many, many years of my life cleaning up the mess you left behind doing things "expediently".
I guess I should be fortunate, though - with enough people running around doing things wrong because it "looks the same to me, and I should know, since I've been looking at it for a while now" leaves plenty of job security for those of us who understand the theory and can apply it.
It's the person, not the pedigree (Score:4, Insightful)
What that means to me is what the person has done and their potential for learning is more important than whether some school gave them a gold star or not. You can apply yourself and learn a great deal in or out of school.
Sure, you can't judge recent grads too well by this measure, but they have little experience anyways.
A degree is more valuable in computing now than it was 15 or 20 years ago, mainly because coursework has caught up. But even so, 4 years in school doesn't beat 6 to 8 years real world experience if the person is sharp.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:4, Insightful)
It's only insulting because you misunderstood.
A fresh-faced lad out of school is a well-rounded individual, but is not likely to have the necessary working knowledge to dig into things right away and be good at their trade. This is true of many things, not just computing. My point is simply that some people who are hiring (frequently, those who don't know what they actually want in an applicant) will stubbornly insist on a degree, and I think that's moronic. You get some kid out of school who knows all about the theoretical basis for the relational model, for example, but has no clue how to actually apply that to a specific implementation. In fact, relational database design is a PERFECT example of that problem: few tools implement the theory properly, so executing it requires you to figure out what they're actually doing. That kind of ingrained knowledge comes with experience, not book study.
On top of that, what irks me about the whole "gotta get that degree" mentality is that some of us just hate school. I do. I hate it. I never want to go back. I hate waiting for the slow kids to play catch up, and I hate getting behind in things I don't want to do. I can learn from books. I just memorize stuff that I hear or read, I don't need a teacher. Why should the fact that I don't need to learn that way be held against me over a peice of paper?
Book study is an integral part of developing your skills. Don't get me wrong - I have an entire room of books stacked full of everything from obsolete RFC printouts to a book about optimizing specific Python tasks. I just think that making it the most important part of a decision - particularly later on in career development - in a field where hands on knowledge can be gained by pretty much anyone is dumb.
You left out a key word (Score:3, Interesting)
There are plenty of "actual" schools that will claim to have a "strong" background. The word to look for is accredited.
A particular program (say, Bachelor's in CS) will receive accreditation only after being reviewed by national standards bodies (ABET, in the CS case, I believe). It's the seal of approval for that degree, basically. Non-accredited programs from good schools might be okay
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Interesting)
As an admin, are you in the position to do any hiring, or provide an serious feedback to the process? I've always wondered what weight a guy like me gets. For all intents and purposes, no formal education, but I do have a very strong grasp of Perl and a rapidly improving (we shall call it's current state "amicable to average development jobs") grasp of db design and SQL. I have a strong enough understanding of the major C concepts and enough experience with the actual language that learning derivative langu
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, that Leondardo fella from Vinci... what a loser!
Sometimes a generalist is exactly what the job calls for. Large corporations don't have much use for them, but a small organization can benefit dramatically from someone who not only knows how to code, but can crimp RJ45s, do staff training, and lay out marketing materials. The generalist may not be as experienced at any one of these things as a specialist... but not everyone can affo
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Insightful)
I hear this a lot on Slashdot and similar places. However, I hear just the opposite when talking to people in the employment field.
I'm US Navy, 19 years, and looking to retire shortly and enter the IT field. I've been repeatedly told by head hunters, employment agencies, etc. that military people who get out and have their certs have little trouble finding a job. Tho
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Certification earned in the military most likely was tough to get, and thus is respected.
2) There are a lot of worthless IT certs in the civilian world, that's why we disrespect them. The poster mentioned "technically adept and smart employers"... headhunters rarely (at least in my experience) have a clue, they're just trying to match technology names to a resume. I once had this fellow quite confused, as it took 5 minutes to explain, that coding Java, and "writing java scripts" were not related. stoopeed headhunter...
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
Real Headhunters work for companies to find the right person to fill a slot, whereas one of the other kinds throw as many bodies at a slot hoping that one will stick. The key difference between the former and the latter is that you don't contact the former about a job, they contact you.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Insightful)
~S
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
However speaking as a hiring manager, I basically ignore them. I am more interested in past employment history, the candidates ability to solve technical questions given during the interview, and a general feeling for whether or not I think the person will get along well with the team.
Having military experience will definitely work in your favor, I found that the best candidate was someone who spent some time in the military, and has then had a couple of years inthe civilian world to adjust to the differences. Plus, the military experience, especially if you do tech work in the military, will many times get you past that initial culling the headhunters do if they don't get too many responses.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked as HR Database Admin for a fairly large (6000+ employee) manufacturing company with plants all over the US. A monster ad for a new Network admin brought in 500+ resumes.
The position reported directly to the CIO, so he was running the hiring process. You don't drop 500 resumes on the CIO's desk. You don't even drop 100 resumes on his desk.
We told him how many applicants we had, and he basically said "OK, throw out everyone who doesn't have a degree, everyone who doesn't have a certification, and everyone who doesn't have a stable work history and at least 5 years of experience. Let me know how many are left."
That got us down to about 60 or so. Did we toss out the best candidate? Very likely. Did we have the time and manpower to give each of those resumes the attention it deserved? Hell no.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
You probably know a few people in your field who left the service before you did. Give them a call. Networking gets you jobs a lot more reliably than headhunters do, especially dumbass headhunters who ignore qualifications like yours.
Military IT candidates were worst for us. (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm a network admin, and one step below the guy who does the actual hiring at my job. The last three tech support positions that we filled with ex-military applicants, because we once felt the same way about them, all turned out to be duds, and all three were just alike in personality and professional demeanor. In the interview, they all seemed very competant, yet humble and eager to learn and play on the team, but once aboard, all three had one and only one goal in mind: to see how fast they could push their way to the top and see if they take over mine and my boss's jobs. Rules and procedures be damned... those were just a hindrance to their goals. We had a constant mess just cleaning up all the unauthorized, unlicensed software they kept installing all about the organization and fixing all the network shared filesystem ACLs that they'd open wide up to full access to everyone because they thought ACL management was too big a hassle. One of them would deliberately install more unlicensed software on the users machines after each time my boss busted him for doing it. They turned out to not be team players at all, except when they got together to conspire against our boss and undermine his authority. My boss is an ex-Marine, and he swore he'd never hire another ex-military tech again if that's the way Uncle Sam is making them these days. Our two best, most productive, sharpest, and easiest to keep-in-line techs hired since then are a couple of typical total geeks. One is a complete Microsoft fanatic, and the other is a totally rabid anti-MS Linux & BSD fanatic. Thet get along great at work, no sh!t.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Informative)
I think you'll find that about half+ of the employers just don't have a clue about military training so attach no real importance to it; for those, you need a civilian cert or two.
But it really shouldn't be any problem, the civilian tests are comparably simple, and most likely the navy will pay for you to take them.
Also, a couple of general end of service pointers:
get a good copy of your medical record NOW.
during the discharge process, make sure that EVERYTHING is on your DD-214.
A
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't get a job without experience, can't get any experience without a job...
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, many people ignore the requirements on the job-descriptions for new applications. It surprised me at first when requesting for a SQL engineer and recieving resumes specifying MSaccess experience solely as for a DB admin position. Resume's like this go to the shredder.
From my own personal attempts at getting hired (which were quite extensive.) My biggest problem was a "poisoned" reference. It made all the other references pretty much worthless. Upon calling this individual, I learned later of course, that most of the prospective employers just stopped and tossed the resume in the circular file.
Also, presentation and attitude helps a ton. If you're looking for a new job be as personable as you would be with a client, as they potentially are. The employer is attempting to find someone who is not only adept, but also socially capable. Shave the beard (or trim it), at least tie the hair back and wear at least a tie when you even HAND in your resume. A good hand shake helps as well as your eye contact, making sure they know who you are is good since then they will know you're not just some resume spammer.
A smart employer will hire someone based upon their experience, if you have no professional experience in an area you would like to move into donate your time somewhere for an NPO, or find a way to utilize it in your current employers setup. A class or certification only helps so much, experience counts for so much more.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:5, Informative)
(Here's a reference at FindLaw [findlaw.com])
So, if this wasn't a business reference, was it a personal reference that went sour? That would be really sad... but I would have thought you might have known that this person was somewhat sour on you...
Not knocking you, just curious how this came about. I would never give a reference that wasn't a very positive one; I'd just omit those entirely! There's no rule that you have to give contact information and references for every job you've ever had.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Interesting)
I won't point fingers or name names, but I surely won't use any business references ever again. Still this is old news, I kind of skipped over my point... I was eventually hired by those who had worked with me in the past and knew my
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Interesting)
Considering how much outsourcing there is in the industry, jack of all trades are becoming more popular. Companies want to hire people who have varied knowledge since the specific tasks can be outsourced. Managerial positions in IT where one can make decisions on what and where projects can be outsourced requires broader knowledge.
Re:It's who you know, and what you know (Score:3, Informative)
No Certs, Lots of Work (Score:3, Interesting)
I have none of that (well, I used to have the CNA, but that was back in '93). I have been employed every month since '90, making embarrassingly large sums of money (which I still manage to spend and remain broke-- go figure).
Everone has a story. Some are successful because of the number of acronyms
Uncle Sammy will double your salary right now! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Uncle Sammy will double your salary right now! (Score:5, Funny)
Well at least it won't be any worse than my current Job!
Find the back door... market yourself differently. (Score:5, Insightful)
I only got a good job going through the "front door" approach once in my life. I was 14 years old.
20 years later, everything worth getting came from being aggressive with marketing myself and finding unexpected leads. I would recommend possibly getting a book about Cold Calling. There's one especially good called Cold Calling for Women [amazon.com] that's really good for men or women. There's also a classic book called What Color is Your Parachte [amazon.com]. It's geared toward people who maybe want to switch careers, but it's got good discussion of finding jobs as well.
It seems to me that going the "normal career route" in the I.T. field is inherently problematic simply because our field changes so rapidly, and few employers want to keep up with constant retraining. So we've got to think differently from other workers, even if we're slogging through the office right next to them.
The way you get the big payoff is you think outside the box. Become your own entrepreneur. If that's too much hassle, enjoy your $13/hr wage.
Cold Calling for Women, eh? (Score:5, Funny)
Hello! My records indicate that this number is registered to an eligible single female in my area code. As an eligible single male, I wanted to take this opportunity to extend a special, one-time off...*click*....
sigh...
555-1112...ring...ring...
Re:Find the back door... market yourself different (Score:3, Insightful)
Being a genius in a box does crap. Network.
Jim Weller
Re:Find the back door... market yourself different (Score:5, Insightful)
For a second there, I thought this was a dating technique for lonely geeks.
Working in IT sucks. There is no "normal career route." Unless you mean:
1. Go to school to obtain sheepskin
2. Apply everywhere
3. Relocate across the country to the one place that took you
4. Get pidgeon-holed into an absurdly narrow field of work (like IBM DB2 Index Optimizer), get treated like crap for 5 years, and get laid off once your field becomes sufficiently obsolete.
5. Unemployment, Ramen, Plasma Donation
6. Lather, Rince, Repeat.
I think I'll become a college professor.
Volunteering worked for me (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Volunteering worked for me (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't get any real experience or improve you skills you could always pay money to get a cert. That works for some ppl. Also, a degree (any) would help. Many employers require a degree or "equivalent experience". (Don't the job notices say that?)
Re:Volunteering worked for me (Score:4, Insightful)
My resume says that I work on a project that competes with Microsoft Exchange. I also have listed IETF working groups that I participate in. (What, you don't? Find one that interests you and get involved.) It also shows an open source project I maintained for the $UNIVERSITY for over eight years.
My suggestion is (Score:5, Funny)
Re:My suggestion is (Score:5, Funny)
Re:My suggestion is (Score:5, Funny)
I'm John Kerry and I approved this advertisement.
Re:My suggestion is (Score:3, Insightful)
the gym
One word... (Score:4, Insightful)
As in, expand your personal contacts, not connecting together computers.
Re:One word... (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is, you need to get out there and talk to people, make some contacts, and make the most of your network. If you're going through HR, it's pretty unlikely you'll ever get an interview, nevermind a job.
In a Klingon economy (Score:5, Funny)
Back To School (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't have a degree, and you can't seem to get anything better than entry-level and dead-end jobs, going to college would probably be a good idea. The degree alone won't solve your problems, but not having a degree gives the overworked HR drone sorting resumes an easy way to categorize yours... as a NO. Which could explain the lack of any interviews. (By the way, picking up a book on resume-writing might be a good idea as well.)
Furthermore, if you're going to go to college, the best time for that is during a weak economy (like now). You don't want to spend that occasional window of 4-5 years when everyone else is making money, by sitting in classes and paying money instead.
Re:Back To School (Score:3, Informative)
When I went to the University of South Carolina in 1991 the tuition was around $1200.00 per semester, rumor has it that it's over $3000.00 per semester now. Roughly 13 years over doubled in price. Granted this isnt Ivy league, but not much hope of working part tim
Re:Back To School (Score:3, Informative)
Strengthen existing skills (Score:5, Informative)
In my opinion, a mile wide/inch deep skillset gets you nowhere. If a resume passed my desk with 50 million skills and 5 years total experience, I am going to question that resume right to the circular file. But maybe that's just me.
Re:Strengthen existing skills (Score:5, Insightful)
So, I have a 10 year skillset in "one inch deep" stuff. Things like custom-made Perl/ABAP/JS/Java/(etc) connectors, web reporting stuff, etc.
Maybe you are lucky and have a CEO who doesn't buy everything they hear about on the golf course...
-WS
Re:Strengthen existing skills (Score:4, Insightful)
My point is don't automatically disqualify people who learn quickly and like to pick up new things. However, I would agree with you if they didn't quantify their expirience with each and had a whole crap load of listings.
Re:Strengthen existing skills (Score:5, Insightful)
Asking a programmer if they have x years of experience in any specific language is a lot like asking a carpenter how many years of experience he has with a certain brand of hammer. It is a stupid question and doesn't help you understand that programmer's ability at all. Saying you need a programmer with any more than 4 years of experience in a particular paradigm is also as stupid as asking a carpenter if he's had years of experience using a hammer. Just as a person can master a hammer in a day or two, any competent programmer can master a paradigm in 3 or 4 years. If it takes them any longer you don't want them.
Unfortunately this concept is beyond most catberts and hiring managers. It is best to just tell the non-technical person you talk to at a company that you are an expert in the inflated skill set they say they need (but never do, it has to do with H1B stuff...), and then let the real programmers who really know what they need do the technical interview and decide if you are a "good fit" for the job.
Move! (Score:5, Interesting)
Big cities think in big company ways. You have management and underlings.
Get to some smaller city where you can work for a smaller business, learn the entire business and move up from there.
At aim for smaller companies ones without a set corporate structure that has no room for you anywhere but the bottom.
Re:Move! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Move! (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes!!! Small companies are where real learning can start simply because you have to wear so many hats. Larger companies are better for getting depth in a particular skill, but smaller ones force you to learn enough about a lot of things -- Jack of all trades, master of many.
:-) and I was thrown in head first and forced to sink or swim. I had a blast for the first 2
My first job was with a tiny engineering company (can you tell
Don't look for money. (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have a degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You don't have a degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You don't have a degree? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've alw
Re:You don't have a degree? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, there are limiting social aspects to not having a degree, and if you come off like a troll in interviews, you are not going to get hired. Being able to talk about college experiences--which your future boss and interviewer probably had--is one way to find common ground. My current uber-boss is from near London, and being able to just chat with him about where I lived in that city when I did a semester abroad allowed us to establish some common ground that made the interview go must more smoothly.
Anyway, go get that sheepskin.
Re:You don't have a degree? (Score:3, Interesting)
That having been said, we just did a round-table in an interview situation today (where the person in question did not have a degree yet), and 40% of us did not have a degree. Of the other 60%, only 2 of those people had a degree in CS
A degree is a go
Get a cert, throw it away (Score:3, Informative)
You don't have a what?! (Score:5, Insightful)
I really hope this isn't serious... how exactly did you plan to get very far in a field you have no formal education in? Trust me, I am a firm believer that "clues > certs" but in the case of a university degree, it's a no brainer. I really hope this was a troll submission...
Move... (Score:3, Insightful)
Consulting (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Consulting (Score:3, Interesting)
Specialize (Score:3, Flamebait)
Nice hobby, crappy career (Score:4, Interesting)
My biggest problem is I am too good at what I do (I build Oracle/MS-SQL DB's for health care facilites). I also make enough money that the ROI on the MBA doesn't look that great. I'll have to work hard on forgetting what I know to be an effective manager. "I heard Mauve has more RAM". heh. Can't wait!
JON
What are your goals? (Score:5, Insightful)
You ask whether it's "worth it" to get some more training or a degree. In return, I'd ask what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want to be a software engineer, given you don't have a computer science background? I've known a few excellent people in that situation, but they are VERY rare.
Also, before blaming the economy: is your resume excellent? Please post it online and I'm sure you'll receive some constructive criticism from the Slashdot crowd....
Re:What are your goals? (Score:3, Interesting)
When/where I'm from, degrees are in fields of knowledge, not technologies.
Well... (Score:4, Interesting)
Currently, one month's pay at that rate that would pay my rent, food, utilities, cable, phone, gas, and 6 months of car insurance, with a sizable chunk left over.
Probably couldn't support a family on that amount, granted, but for anyone (single or splitting costs) not living right near a giant city, $13/hour would be awesome.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe this will change when I finish school next year, but damn, I would kill for a salary of $13/hour at the moment.
I make about $9.60 an hour as an enlisted Air Force programmer. It can always be worse.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
It is also somewhere barely above poverty... Hell I made 12 bucks an hour when I was in school 15 years ago. Yes, I got to live like a king in a small college town. But now I have a mortgage that is 3 times what I was paying in Rent - and frankly I like my nice stuff.
Now if you are in school somewhere in California, or expensive towns in the North East - I feel sorry for you that you can't make money. If you are in school somewhere in the midwest - I agree 13 bucks an hour i
Pick up some specialized skills (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, learn about sales/marketing and learn how to code with either IRI or AcNielsen or both. Learn about finance and Bloomberg APIs, etc.
You'll do MUCH better if you come across as someone who understands business but also knows how to code as opposed to someone who's just a god at coding.
yes, but ... (Score:3)
What do you *want* to do ? You want to climb the ladder of IT jobs, fine. I hear you. But, higher up the ladder, you don't get an easier job. You may get paid a bit better than $13 an hour, but your expectations will increase accordingly. What are you happy doing ?
I often kicked myself for graduating when I did. I got out of university about an year before the dot-com boom died. This was in 2000. People who graduated a mere year before me were in positions like "architect" and "senior team lead", I was a lowly developer. You can take all the experience you want, but some (most?) places DO look for prior management experience and even if you did nothing except crunch code, you were called an architect, so you get your foot in the door.
I had to go about it differently. I was a lowly developer. I tried to vary my skillset and technology. No job was too controversial, too risky, too cutting edge. I asked for (and got) all the mad projects, with high risk and high gain (and an equally high chance of failing). I am not sure if this will work for you, or even if you want to, but if you're looking for experience, then think carefully about accepting risky jobs. At startups, underfunded companies and the like. Don't expect to double or triple your salary today. Just keep getting that all important project, real-world experience. Contribute to open source projects. Keep your coding skills fresh. Make an effort to learn some technologies in depth. Call me troll if you like, but for now, Java and .NET both seem to be fairly good bets. Each month, each year you spend building up your resume, you're also in contact with coworkers who work in technology. Network. Get a reputation for good work, for not being a slacker, for being a knowledgable, reasonable person to work with.
I've gotten 3 (out of 4) jobs so far purely because of someone I knew who knew someone else who had a vacancy.. or from old university contacts .. or from old coworkers who knew I was looking around for another place...
The difference between you and a lot of other people ? You've got less to lose.
Good luck
The dreaded words....Marketing (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been keeping my programming skills sharp by freelancing when available and working on interesting projects for my website. In another 6 months I'll start looking for a programming job again but now I'll have 2 years experiance managing people, working out budgets, working on business strategy and an established protfolio of freelance work.
This approach probably isn't for everyone but for it's made this recession bearable.
Be willing to move or if that fails work for free (Score:4, Insightful)
Or you could find some non profit orgs out there and offer to spruce up their systems and get them going - for free! It could wind up being more experience and responsibility than you might even get for money. Great references too! And a song in your heart. Proves to yourself that you know all you say you do on the resume.
The finaly point is to DO SOMETHING. Just sending out resumes and learning are not enough. Use some of it in creative ways or at least try to.
Good luck.
Learn How To Sell!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
This might sound trite but it's the truth.
My "order takers" calling themself's "salesmen" make 45-50k. My real salesmen make 80k+.
And no, it doesn't mater what you sell (see above)
From some managers I have recently spoken to... (Score:3, Interesting)
I asked how they would rank their candidates on based on education, experience, and certifications.
While one preferred education over experience, they both agreed that certifications were a distant third and worthless without the corresponding experience.
However, since labor is a commodity and we are currently in period of high supply and low demand, you aren't going to get as much as you might want to.
There are a lot of very experienced and very educated people going for the same positions you are. As one manager put it, "Right now I can get an incredible amount of talent for a third of their last job, simply because they need the check and benefits."
These days, you either need an impressive degree, an impressive amount of experience, or a combination thereof.
As someone said above, your social networking skills are important, too.
Good luck.
IT's dead. Get over it. (Score:3, Informative)
differences between certs and a 4 year degrees (Score:3, Insightful)
2) A cert means your are familiar with a particular technology. You are qualified to be a code monkey or a hardware monkey. A degree means you understand more than that just where the buttons are.
If you want to move up the ladder, you need a least a 4 year degree. All but the lowest levels of management are out of reach to you right now. A degree shows that you
1) Have been trained to think critially.
2) Have a background in theory
3) Have been trained to communicate (English classes are NOT a waste of time).
4) Were forced to deal with people who do not think as you do, with other priorities and values.
5) Have the patience to slog through 4 years of work before getting your reward.
6) You know how to work independently and also as part of a team.
The best combo is degree + exp. + certs. But it looks like you have experience, and with a degree that should help. I assume that while in school you would let the certs lapse, but if you can keep up on them you would be in a great position. And you may decide that there is more to life than technology and go into a completely different field. Be happy at what you do.
In our situation, we hired a guy with certs but no degree and he had to work independently. He cratered out. THen we hired a guy with both a degree and certs and I *am* impressed.
Move to a small town (Score:5, Informative)
I did my job, met people, tried my best to get known as a great tech and I now have a great job as a System Admin that I love to death. The cities are full of people looking for your kind of work. Get out of there and go somewhere that needs people that know the things that you do. Of course, you won't find any software companies in small towns but you will find TONS of businesses that have to use computers and networks to get their jobs done, and all those people need someone to work on their computers.
Most small towns have a few computer repair businesses that take care of the businesses but the days of walking in and fixing a computer quickly are over. It takes time to get to know someones network and software and you can't do a good job if you're charging an hourly rate like the small computer support businesses do. These areas are perfect for convincing a business that they will save money and get better service if they hire you as their admin. Show them all the things that need to be done on a daily basis like following security advisories, updating computers, checking security, etc.
The company I work for pays me quite well and they said their past 3rd party support cost them 3 times as much as I do, and more gets done quicker. Before they would have to wait to get something fixed, sometimes up to 3 days. Now things get fixed immediately and revenues are up because of it.
Be creative - don't be a robot (Score:4, Informative)
Not gonna be a popular answer... (Score:5, Insightful)
This answer is going to cost me an arm and a leg in karma, but what the heck. That's what it's for, right?
Show some employer loyalty.
I just did a hire about 4 months ago. We chewed through resumes for about 6 months before we found someone that we felt would fit. Something that we noticed and ended up using as a filter rule was whether or not a person would stick with a job for more than 6 months. Generally as a rule of thumb, you really want to stick out a job, unless its absolutely hellacious, for about three years. I'd really recommend five, to be honest. That way you're not viewed as someone contaminated with the so-called 'Dotcom Disease.'
We really wanted someone that once we've invested time, money, and training in to make a contribution to our projects for more than the time an intern would. Most !Dotcoms are similar in their opinions.
Actually, upon considering it, what this really ought to be relabeled as rather than 'employer loyalty' as 'resume care and feeding'. Your career will live and die by it. Take care of it and it will take care of you. Taking lots of short gigs to try to climb quickly scares off a lot of hiring folk.
I could go on ponticating, but I am sure that you're sick of it already. ;)
Re:Not gonna be a popular answer... (Score:5, Insightful)
-
We really wanted someone that once we've invested time, money, and training in to make a contribution to our projects for more than the time an intern would. Most !Dotcoms are similar in their opinions.
Just wanted to note that this is the same reason many employers want to see candidates with a degree (Bachelor's minimum generally, Associate's degrees don't get as much respect). Having the degree is more important than what field it's in because it shows you stick out what you start and finish it. Employers want that, especially in an economy like now where they can pick and choose more freely.Re:Not gonna be a popular answer... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where employees ride a boom, employers ride the bust. And that incidentally is why IT employers are still bleating about skills shortages - they don't exist but it makes sense to insist there's a shortage to encourage a cheap supply of well-qualified folks, right?
But the bottom line is buddy, if you want loyalty from your employees, take a pay cut before you sack people next time, after all if you have to get rid of people you've basically failed to do your job, so it's only fair that you should share the blame, right?
I work in retail IT. It's a fairly stable area of the economy. But I'm also conscious of the fact that while a shop attendant with 15 years service gets $10 an hour, the CEO of a retail group will get $10m a year and will stay in the job for 6 months.
Sorry if I sound new to this capitalism thing, but the equation seems really simple. However, as I get it but you don't I'll give it to you in big writing:
IF YOU WANT LOYALTY FROM YOUR EMPLOYEES, START SHOWING THEM SOME LOYALTY YOURSELF.
(karma and conscience are both burnable rubbish)
kick em out (Score:3, Insightful)
time for a new labor movment, keep jobs here, keep money here (in Boston...all of you in India can fight globalization keeping WalMart and Microsoft out if you want, I have no problem with that)
Stop worrying about what you know... (Score:3, Insightful)
...and start worrying about who you know.
If someone knows you, respects you, and happens to come into a position to offer a job, it almost doesn't matter what your skills set is. On the other hand, if someone who is offering a job doesn't know you, you almost certainly don't have what they are looking for.
What are you doing outside of work? If you're not spending time getting to know your local colleagues (via users groups, seminars, book groups, etc. etc.), you'll have to rely on lucking into your next job...and luck is pretty hard to come by these days.
Your skill sets and your work (Score:3, Informative)
while my degree has been of great assitance, more than anything my experience has been the real bargain maker. Questions about degree's last less then a minute in your average interview, do you have one or not is all they want to know most of the time.
But job and real world experience are the goods employers will really ask you about, this is where youve got to be able to say youve done good work in the trenches. Working for smaller companies in IT/IS will give you great experience, even if its for less pay.
lots of guys take grunt jobs with "impresive" big companies and end up with resumes that are less impresive... can you say you designed, implemented and supported a new and growing network? or did you just keep the system running? Have you designed, and built applications or key components of them? or did you just fill in code?
Youll tend to get stronger experience working in less attractive jobs but demanding jobs.
While many people will say a jack of all trades resume is bad, the skillset can be quite usefull in creating a new company or helping one start, which may be a better option for you. The main problem with just "learning" skills without truly using them in a real world application is that your unproven.
Stay up with your education, and use what you learn to make real programs, shareware and so on, create a full-fledged (ecommerce,security,flash,CMS, etc...) web site for a small company who may not be able to pay you.
If you take the risk, and the lower paying jobs (or even charity cases!!).. youll find your work oportunities increasing quite quickly.
P.S. ..... go to night school... get the degree... its definitly worth it...
An individual solution to a social problem (Score:5, Insightful)
The social solution to this is obvious. IT workers working nowadays are not working 40 hour weeks, they're working 50 and 60 hour weeks. Three IT workers working 40 hour weeks are doing the same amount of work as two working 60 hour weeks. If people working now cut back on the hours working, there would be more jobs. While the bosses and their sycophants always portray this as an individual thing between a boss and a worker, it is anything but. The bosses and owners have done massive lobbying as an organized unit to try to change the law [slashdot.org] so that the few IT workers currently eligible for overtime now won't get it any more. Since the organized IT worker force to counteract the well-organized, well-funded IT company campaign to to do this is weak and small currently, this law will probably pass and you will be worse off.
The IT bosses and owners are all acting as basically one organized unit and using their pull as such in Washington DC and elsewhere. The sycophants here are telling you that the hours of free work beyond 40 hours that you do is an individual thing between you and your boss that is your individual responsibility to be in a contract, and a union or the government should not come in and put pressure to help you out there. They also tell you to increase your skills (although, as you've said, it's done nothing for you), or to "network" more than the next guy to find the few job slots that open up - perhaps you can grab it faster than the next guy if you're quick enough.
Of course the real answer is you need to communicate and organize with other IT workers, and join or form some type of association, union, guild or whatever which acts independently but also puts pressure on the government. Otherwise you just have hundreds of thousands of individual little mice or birds running around trying to find diminishing pieces of food.