Alternatives to SBC? 32
bionic-john asks: "We are a relatively small shop running 11 point-to-point T-1's carrying both voice and data. It seems weekly we have an issue, and it takes SBC at least a day from notification to resolution. To my knowledge, they are the only game in Chicago since they control all the copper which resellers just resell. The data bit is easy -- DSL with VPN, but what about the voice and central voice-mail? I have spoken with other vendors offering pseudo-VOIP using a hardware layer between their CO and our voice-switch, but it seems like the technology is still in its infancy, is not fully tested, and it's still SBC copper out the door. The strange thing with all this is, that we have just as many PRI's, and probably 1/20th of our issues involve those. It's always the point-to-point. What am I missing? What can I do?"
Voxilla is your friend. (Score:3, Informative)
Start here. (Score:4, Informative)
Mr. Ashkar, you owe me.
Actually, check with your local wisps. Most of them will bend over backwards to meet your needs and get your business, and give you all of the personal attention you could ever want.
Smaller companies tend to be like that.
If you're in St. Louis though, give me a call and we'll get you straightened out.
Does your contract have an SLA? (Score:5, Informative)
Do your problems repeat on the same T1 or migrate from T1 to T1?
Do you experience new and different problems?
Do you have a documented history of the problems?
How many POPs or COs do your P-to-P T1s cover? I'm assuming you have a star pattern, with the center hub being one end point for each of the T1s.
Of course, a lot of this is speculative, without any solid information to go on, this is pure guesswork.
Look to see if you have an SLA in your contract. If you do, are they honoring it? If not, rattle the sabres. It may or may not make any difference. You might also start complaining to your state's regulatory office that oversees SBC.
Do they ever give you a satisfactory explanation of the problems? If the same problem keeps happening repeatedly, then you may need to escalate to higher levels of management (SBC) to address the problem. Again, it may or may not help.
If you do not have SLA, look at other carriers in the area for P-to-P T1s. MCI/Worldcom (whatever they call themselves now), Sprint, not to mention other regional carriers are likely available in that area. Get a tough SLA on that deal. Even if SBC provides the copper, if you get a deal with another "name brand" carrier that includes a tough SLA, sometimes your new provider will be more influential in getting SBC to honor their obligations.
While it certainly isn't fun, you can sometimes gain more traction with this method since SBC's failure to fix the problem is now affecting another common carrier, and not a private individual, which means the other carrier can cause SBC some serious problems. Of course, you'll often need a though SLA to "motivate" the new provider to aggressively deal with SBC.
How close are your locations? Have you considered a ds3 or fiber ring instead of point to point? Depending on what kinds of problems you are having, and if they are located at the end points, the center of the hub, or in between within SBC transport facilities, a ring approach may or may not help.
Have you contacted your sales rep? Those guys are typically on commission. Don't know if they get recurring commissions for keeping you happy, but if they do, he could be another person you can motivate to work on your behalf. If you were to jump to another carrier, even if SBC provided the copper, he'd lose his commission from your circuits.
Just a few ideas. If you want to provide more information, I'm sure myself or others would be able to provide even better suggestions.
Re:Does your contract have an SLA? (Score:2)
The 'No problem found' but your problem mysteriously getting fixed is a common tactic. At one point (I'm out of that biz now, and haven't kept up to date) the carriers have to report the quality of their network and other details to various state and federal authorities. If they admitted a problem, then it would have to show up in that report, so they tend to try and minimize it.
The point of the SLA is to hav
Hmmm... A "small" shop... (Score:4, Informative)
11 T-1s...
You know, that's a chunk of change. If your telco is not giving you good service, "talk" to them about it.
Re:Hmmm... A "small" shop... (Score:2, Informative)
Are you serious? They're a near monopoly; they don't have a big incentive to care. And in my experience, they rarely did.
It's been a decade since I ran a network in Chicago, but at the time they did not take my circuits nearly as seriously as my company did. We tried to used other networks, but that was only possible in large buildings where it was worth it for an alternate provider to ru
Re:Hmmm... A "small" shop... (Score:2)
Try frame relay (Score:5, Informative)
Secondly, your SLA with your service provider should give you quite a bit of leverage. With point-to-point connections, some service providers will only offer 2 nines, which would mean about three and a half days of downtime a year. It's not really cost-effective to build redundant datapaths for point-to-point connections, so along the entire path there are probably many points of failure.
SBC Alternative (Score:4, Funny)
Alternative providers (Score:1)
http://www.rcn.com/business/index.php [rcn.com]
http://www.abovenet.com/products/maps.html [abovenet.com]
http://work.comcast.net/smallbusiness.asp [comcast.net]
http://www.level3.com/3385.html [level3.com]
http://www.cogentco.com/htdocs/map.php# [cogentco.com]
Re:Alternative providers (Score:1)
Re:Alternative providers (Score:1)
Copper not the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
I work for a CLEC in Chicago (Score:5, Informative)
That said, I know what you want is service, not price. If you go with a CLEC (a company which resells products the ILEC (the monopoly) sells, you're going through both SBC and a middle-man.
So, it's important that you get a good CLEC which is both very service oriented and is populated with at least some ex-SBC people who can call SBC Vice-Presidents who are old friends to get you back up in a timely manner, when SBC screws you, which they'll do from time to time. I know we make those calls, when the ILEC just isn't doing the right things, but I don't know about other CLECs.
When you're getting the ILEC to do something, like diagnose a line, you're often talking to underlings who don't know what they're doing. It's hugely helpful to have someone on your side of the phone who knows both their job and thei manager's job.
Get a CLEC.
Ask around. Get a company that's been in business for more than just a few years. And watch the salesman. If he gets all excited about some point to point T1's, that means they're small (or he is, unfortunately) and that they'll CARE about your business, unlike SBC.
And don't go with MCI. They're AWFUL, unless you're a giant company.
CLECs, the last mile and sucky service (Score:4, Informative)
Now, you need to find a "facilities-based" provider. This is a telco with a switch or more and its own fiber (usually not copper). But it is the "last mile", that is, the fiber from the CLEC's line into your building to your wiring closet that is usually provided by Bell. That line, then, needs to be tested by your CLEC's technicians and if it does not pass sufficiently, your CLEC needs to demand a different circuit to be installed.
Implicit in my words above is the thought that you would be using T1s for voice, data, and/or integrated circuits and not just unbundled copper loops. You indicated that this was your situation when you referred to "PRIs".
If the customer wants to be completely on a CLECs fiber network (to the CO, of course), then such a customer will likely need to pay to have the line pulled and the building lit. That can run $40/foot for buried cable. Ariel is less expensive, of course. If your CLEC has fiber nearby your office, you might want to make a deal to have it pulled for you. But it is not cheap.
Right now I'm talking with a company that wants two OC-48s in their local data center. We're pricing out building out to their building versus leasing the last mile from SBC. Most likely we'll lease the last mile from Bell. It's just that much cheaper.
And, by all means, avoid VoIP unless you have only technical customers calling in. Anyone else will think you're based in a Third World Nation. Dynamic T1s (that allocate 64k channels for voice or data on the fly based on usage) are also suspect. Stick with what works: Static T1 voice and data, maybe an integrated T1 for smaller businesses.
Re:CLECs, the last mile and sucky service (Score:2, Informative)
Re:CLECs, the last mile and sucky service (Score:1)
Re:CLECs, the last mile and sucky service (Score:2)
Just so no one assumes this assertion might be dubious based on it coming from an apparently competing CLEC...ALGX really does suck. I had a client here in Austin switch from ALGX to SBC and service got a lot better...and SBC also sucks horribly in their own special way. ALGX was just a joke. Down time could be counted in days per month, and they actually had a cap in their SLA--so if things were really bad and downtime topped s
Problems with SBC? (Score:1)
Well (Score:1)
Oh wait.
Possible solution in Chicago (Score:4, Informative)
Two options... (Score:2)
1) MPLS contracts usually come with clear and enforceable SLAs. That will help mitigate your downtime and control the vendor.
2) MPLS can hand off on DSL or frame or all sorts of ways depending on the provider.
3) is is multi-point to multi-point and you
Well... (Score:1)
SBC has been pretty responsive, really. The problem with CLECs (and none of the responding ones have really mentioned) is that if it is a Bell hardware problem, your wait time won't be decreased a whit. On our PTP lines via SBC, we can typically get a tech onsite/at the pole in about 2 hours. When the PRI goes down, the CLEC spends 4 hours testing it, calls Bell....etc, etc - I've never had it resolved, or even seen a tech
Re:Well... (Score:2)
I know how you feel. (Score:1)
Re:I know how you feel. (Score:1)
Sprint (Score:1)
http://www.sprint.com/business/products/products/s printLinkFrameRelay.jsp [sprint.com]
The downfall wa