Where Are All of the HDTV Tuners? 208
An anonymous reader asks: "Today I read about rabbit ears making a comeback with OTA HTDV. I want to purchase a standalone ATSC HDTV tuner to go with my projector, but I am having a very hard time finding one. The big-box stores seem to only stock one or two models and are frequently sold out. Searching online yields similar results. It would seem that there would be ever increasing demand for these tuners given that many HDTVs were sold without internal tuners in years past, and these tuners will be necessary for all old NTSC TVs after the February, 2009 shutdown of analog broadcasts. Where should I look to buy one of these devices? Of the currently available models, which are the best? Will the standalone HDTV tuner become a ubiquitous item as the 2009 deadline approaches?"
Samsung (Score:5, Informative)
I have an SIR-T165 and it works great. Tunes all analog cable, OTA analog and digital, plus OTA HDTV. Supports all formats. No broadcast flag, IEEE-1394/FireWire, DVI, VGA/RGB, S-Video, component, composite. Samsung did a really great job packing in a lot of connectors, formats, and functionality. The SIR-T451 appears to add QAM for digital cable (in the clear, no doubt), and HDCP on the DVI.
This doesn't answer the question about where they've all gone, but Samsung did a good job and hopefully you can pick one of these, or something like it, up somewhere.
$180 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:VOOM for OTA (Score:2)
Paid a whopping $50 for receiver and another $25 for the VOOM flat panel antenna and mount. Only had to buy a little COAX to go with it, and I was set. Even came with its own remote.
As I understand it, the VOOM box has to have been activated for it to be of any use, so be sure you check on that point before picking one up off Ebay, etc.
--
Karma is overrated!
Re:Samsung (Score:5, Interesting)
The Samsung receivers are available on ebay in abundance, well south of 50 bucks-just be careful that you understand how to set the unit to non-DirecTV OTA mode - it may require a used access card to stick in the back.
Also, in response to another post, some digital stations ARE on lower numbered VHF channels, and when the switchover happens, some currently on uhf will move down to vacated space, so don't assume that it's only UHF in your city, or it will always be.
Re:Samsung SIR-TS160 (Score:2, Informative)
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it hasn't been restricted yet (Score:3, Insightful)
Over the air (OTA) HD isn't restricted yet, but I developed an industry paranoia over the last ten years and don't trust that OTA will:
It's probably one of the reasons you don't see many rabbit ear and external tuners available at the electronics stores. And if there is any groundswell to "free" access to HDTV by consumers indicated in trends towards antennas and external tuners I'm guessing the industry will take note, and tighten the thumbscrews on how you can access OTA (e.g., some convoluted cable requirement, or antenna to TV DRM).
As much as I hate cable, satellite (actually I hate satellite a little less than cable), etc., I think going the OTA route could be something you kick yourself for later. Hold your nose, bite your lip, and sign up for cable or satellite (I've had good luck and service from Dish...)
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I'd dare say that MOST of John Q. Public has no idea that you can get HDTV free over the air. I've had to correct a number of people I know about this. Most people that are not 'techie' or really into AV systems....all assume that you have to have Satellite or Cable to get a HDTV signal.
I've seen such an 'amazed' look on some people's faces when I finally convice or demonstrate that HD can be viewed over the air over a pa
The 2009 deadline.... (Score:3, Interesting)
What was the first time they told us analog TV was going away "real soon! we promise!!"?
Wasn't it something like 1997?
Seriously, guys, I'll believe this one when I see it. The FCC's digital TV broadcast announcements have become a pathetic parody of the boy who cried wolf.
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What, do you think it's just not going to happen? It's only a matter of time before SDTVs aren't being built anymore, and then only a matter of time before the gross majority of households are using HDTV.
Clearly the FCC did a poor job at estimating a timetable and expected HDTV prices to drop much faster than they have, but I see no reason to think that SDTV broadcasts aren't going away eventually.
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There's a difference between digital and high-def. The FCC was requiring that all analog broadcasting go digital by year-x to save alot of frequency space. Said broadcasts would still be in standard definition but would require a digital tuner to plug into your TV instead of just bunny ears or roof-racks if y
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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Barring a miracle, the chances that analog TV will be shut down in 2009 are roughly the same as those that George W Bush will be elected mayor of Ramadi, Iraq in a free and fair election. My guess is that the next analog deadline in the on-going debacle that has been digital TV rollout in the US will be 2012. And the real shutdown will be in 2015 or later.
Many congressmen have staff people who are capable of figuring out the consequ
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And so long as they price the digital at 2 - 3 times the cost of the analog version, that will continue. The shitty part is they've made the analog cable worse, intentionally, to drive sales of digital cable.
I said "fuck em" and went with an inexpensive Dish network package.
-l
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You're right - the problem is the GP poster seems to think 10 years is a long time. I bet 20 years from now you'll need an adapter to downsample HDTV which will be the only feed source still around, but people will still have NTSC sets. Those adapters should cost $12 by then, so not a big deal.
In the meantime a big chunk of the existing wire plant in the US needs to be replaced and the satellite providers need to launch many more bi
Re:The 2009 deadline.... (Score:5, Informative)
It takes less bandwidth for digital cable than OTA, and having two hundred more shopping channels isn't exactly on consumer's must-have-now list.
10 years is a long time. Consumer HD devices have been out for quite some time, it's been the encoding that has kept the whole thing from going anywhere. Most of the problems with the roll out stem from the FCCs total lack of backbone in setting the standard (singular). Instead, we got a "whatever you guy want" spec that is a royal PITA to implement. And don't even think of arguing VSB or QAM. As a consumer, I don't give a shit which has more technical superiority in certain circumstances - I want it to work. The FCC should have mandated a single type of encoding. Period. We all agree that VHS was chosen over Betamax for user-friendliness over quality - but you get enough eggheads and technophiles in a room with the bean counters and you can pretty much just ask the consumer to drop trou and bend over.
Re:The 2009 deadline.... (Score:4, Informative)
US cable systems also use 6 MHz channels, so 8-VSB would certainly work over cable too. But it would waste cable capacity because the cable channel is so much cleaner than the broadcast channel. 256-QAM, popular on US cable systems, provides about 38 Mb/s per 6 MHz channel, about twice that of 8-VSB in the same bandwidth. This signal is necessarily more 'fragile' than 8-VSB, but it works fine on a well-engineered hybrid fiber/coax system.
Perhaps you meant to compare 8-VSB to DVB/OFDM, the over-the-air scheme used in Europe and other countries? This is where the debate has raged. OFDM, with its built-in multipath resistance, had a definite advantage over 8-VSB in early implementations. But as the receive equalizers in 8-VSB improved, it has become at least the equal of OFDM according to the on-air tests I've seen. Both work.
Many digital TVs sold in the support both ATSC 8-VSB and QAM signals. 8-VSB is obviously needed for over-the-air reception, but you can't necessarily receive digital TV from your cable system even if you have a QAM tuner. My experience with Time Warner Cable is that all of the digital TV channels are encrypted except for the minority taken from local TV broadcast stations. In other words, with just a QAM tuner in your set you can't get anything from cable that you can't get from an antenna. This makes the QAM tuner much less useful than it could be.
Some (but not many) digital TVs have slots for a "CableCard". You rent this from your local cable company, and it decrypts the remaining digital channels for you (or at least the ones to which you have subscribed). Besides not being available yet on most digital TVs, current CableCards are unable to handle two-way services such as video-on-demand and pay-per-view, so it's just not very useful yet. That means you might as well rent a digital tuner box from your cable company and plug it into your TV set with HDMI so that you don't use the TV's QAM tuner at all.
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I specifically meant to compare VSB and QAM. Oh, sure, you can double the bandwidth over cable with QAM, but do you have to? Would it not have been better to have a single tuner standard, with a single encoding standard, and a single resolution standard? I'm an audio/video geek, I admit it. But to be honest, after watching a decade of failed product after failed product I'm inclined to believe the Television should be like a Mac - it should just work. It's not optimal, it's not th
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Yes, I think it's just not going to happen. I think there is a much greater chance that over-the-air broadcast will be made entirely obsolete by network content distribution before the feds ever throw the switch on NTSC. I also think that the claim that SDTVs will simply not be manufactured anymore rests on the faulty assumption that NTSC broadcasts will be turned off.
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Yes, I think it's just not going to happen. I think there is a much greater chance that over-the-air broadcast will be made entirely obsolete by network content distribution before the feds ever throw the switch on NTSC.
So it's a race, which will happen more quickly: HDTVs will become ubiquitous -or- the big OTA networks will give up on their business model. Which do you think will happen sooner?
I also think that the claim that SDTVs will simply not be manufactured anymore rests on the faulty assumpti
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HDTVs can display a SDTV picture, so there's not really much of a downside to HDTV except price, and that price keeps coming down.
All of the HDTVs on sale now seem to have a 16:9 display, even the CRT ones. I don't want an HDTV until the shows I watch are in 16:9 - why put up with a squished picture, or wasting space on black (sometimes grey) bars on the sides?
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Buy a Mac mini and an Elgato EyeTV Hybrid (Score:4, Informative)
Digital != HDTV (Score:2)
Therefore, doesn't address the author's question.
One of them does (Score:2)
Also, why does this part not say to you it would work:
"Watch analog as well as free over-the-air digital TV on your Mac."
I me
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This looks like a nice tuner for a Mac mini, since it's so tiny.
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$750 solution to a $180 problem? (Score:2)
At least one compact tuner is the Elgato EyeTV hybrid. Use that with a Mac mini, and you have a great DVR that does OTA HD as well as standard def TV - and all of the video recorded is DRM free, transcode away or burd to DVD or do whatever.
That's quite a recommendation (at least $750) for someone who simply requested "a standalone ATSC HDTV tuner to go with my projector." Someone already recommended a $180 Samsung tuner [samsung.com] that might meet the submitter's requirements better than your Mac mini ($600 without DVD burner) plus Elgato tuner ($150) suggestion.
Still works (Score:2)
I have some counter points to your points:
The Samsung tuner has an HDMI output with HDCP. HDCP will be needed to watch broadcast flagged content in non-degraded HD.
Are you sure you are not thinking of AACS HD disc protections here? I was not aware OTA broadcasts ever included this flag
Do you have a home theater PC? (Score:2)
I just use an HTPC to record o
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Market forces play a lot here. The manufactures know their market. The tuners are not cheap to make. Consumers are looking for a sub $100 box. A digital tuner is generealy a $75 UHF tuner with a $75-$100 single board processor attached. Not many people are interested in buying one of these tuners to stick on their 10 year old TV set that had the same value when brand new. Because few people buy th
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I'm about ready to lay down some cash on a TV tuner for my home theater box that is hooked up to the projector, though. I would much rather have a stand-alone device to do the HD deal, but I can deal with the PC if it's 2x cheaper....
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Which is why there is a limited supply of set top boxes.
They are not for the 13 inch tv/vcr combo unit you keep in the kitchen.
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Otherwise it'd just get static.
rabbit ears are useless for HD (Score:5, Informative)
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Tv reception is an amazingly complex affair, and it is difficult to judge any antenna by
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HD home run (ethernet with 2 tuners) (Score:5, Informative)
go read up. you need a pc (this isn't an end-user device that connects directly to a tv) but it DOES have atsc and clear-qam. meaning: off the air and also cable unencrypted.
seems to work, too. I love mine. 1 channel of HD takes 15% of a 10/100 ether. gig-e is not even close to needed, here, thankfully. (all the work is in PLAYBACK, not saving to disk, btw).
HDHomeRun (ethernet with 2 tuners) (Score:4, Informative)
I like the LG 3510A (Score:3, Informative)
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I had forgotten about the channel 2 issue, I don't watch a lot of PBS here in the Boston area.
What I do like is that: these boxes are pretty sensitive receivers, don't lock up on intermittent signals, I can hook them up to an otherwise worthless VGA monitor and make a cheap TV, I can hook them up to the DVI input of my LCD TV and get very good picture, and they can be gotten cheap on eBay.
And if you get lucky, DVD playback can be extremely go
Anti-Piracy (Score:2)
HD-TV is the poster child for the kind of anemic, twisted, worthless marketplace you get when #$@%#$@% content providers get all pissy about protecting their #@$#@$$ content!!
Every Device Must Have One! (Score:5, Informative)
Xesdeeni
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Seriously, though, I'd forgotten it was coming up because it had been delayed so long. Of course, we could all be watching HD on either full sets or STBs if the FCC had had the balls to decide on a single ATSC format 20 years ago. Instead, they "let the industry and market forces" decide. Apparently, the industry prefers a clusterfuck, 'cause that's w
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No. Someone else here quoted 30%. I guessed based solely on my personal experience.
A little googling got me:
Here you go:
27% satellite penetration as of 8/2005 - http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/jdpower _satellite.html [consumeraffairs.com]
59% cable penetration as of 12/2006 - http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?contentId=54 [ncta.com]
So that's 86% penetration of satellite and cable, leaving 14% either without TV entirely or relying on OTA.
I'd say my ass was pretty accurate today
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Big-ass loophole? (Score:2)
we are 3 days from the March 1, 2007 date when every device with an analog tuner, must have a digital one... That means not only all TVs (even 13" and below), but also VCRs, DVD recorders, etc. But where are they?
There appears to be a loophole: devices can meet this requirement by not including an analog OTA tuner (see "March 1: The beginning of the end for analog TV" [cnet.com]). For years we've seen digital televisions with no tuners but lots of inputs for external tuners, and these meet the requirements. According to the article, VCRs, DVD recorders, DVRs, et. al. can skirt the digital tuner requirement by tweaking the analog tuner to only accept a cable TV tuner (but not an analog OTA antenna). The TiVo Series2 DT is a cu
Samsung TR451at circuit city (Score:3, Informative)
There are many more digital channels available in minneapolis than on NTSC (normal) broadcast. I get 7 PBS stations over the air digitally. I get a just for kids Qubo station. I get an all music video with no comercials station. I get 2 weather channels. Plus I get all the local channels in high def, digital perfection and a digital guide. Why would anyone view over the air on NTSC?
I view this on my beutiful Westinghouse 42' LCD at 1080i but I'm pretty sure my tuner would output to an old 480i CRT TV.
The Samsung TR451 works pretty well but I have a few quibbles. The guide takes a while to load the information when I press the guide button. The channels take longer to change than a regular TV.
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Shame, really. I was going to try to buy one before the Superbowl (about 2 months before) and the local shops only had like one model EACH to choose from. Would really like to get some "face" time with the unit before I plunk down 250$ for the device... ugh....
In addition, I only have a projector that will do 480p. Doesn't matter to me - would still like to get the OTA goodness like eve
Don't confuse Digital with HD TV (Score:5, Insightful)
DTV is not required to be HD.
Chances are your local broadcast stations will only be transmitting in HD those prime-time and sports programming. Expect regular morning and afternoon programming to be standard definition with alternate-language or alternate image in the sub-channels (a single DTV "channel" can have 4 SD sub-programs or 1 HD program stream). Some stations are using one sub-channel to show real-time weather RADAR, others do Spanish programming or children's programming.
I would guess that the predicted-cheap-and-ubiquitous set-top-boxes will not support HD since the goal is to get older TVs to still watch this new digital stuff. (Clearly you will not be able to get a higher definition picture on your old tube!)
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They have to decode HD, because what if a particular channel is only broadcast in HD? The box has to decode it. In theory some cheap boxes could have only scaled-down SD composite outputs, but I think by 2009 the box will be one chip and HD component output will be "free".
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Should have been more clear: Will not output in HD. I am guessing that the cheap tuners would employ a cheap chip that downconverts to the lower resolution of NTSC. Less connectors on the back means less cost.
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That's pretty much all I watch broadcast television for anyway. All the rest of the time I'm at work. I've found the majority of the television I watch is in HD.
Either way buying an HDTV with an ATSC tuner has been a great choice, as I don't have cable in the first place. The ATSC signal comes crystal clear, much better than the analog stations. It's worth it just for the 480i shows.
Also: where are the _downconverters?_ (Score:5, Interesting)
Every six months or so I wander into a Best Buy or a Tweeter and ask.
Not only do they not have them, they often don't seem to know what I'm talking about.
Since my understanding is that The Plan, when they pull the plug on VHF/UHF, is for people that can't afford all-new TVs to buy downconverters... and that The Price is supposed to be in the $20 range.. you'd think that _a few_ would be available _now_, for, say, $100?
None available, at any price, through normal retail channels. In my (admittedly limited) personal experience.
Something about this does not make sense...
Something
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If I HAD a DTV receiver... (Score:2)
Or do you mean "tuner?"
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I'm being told that I could buy a DTV receiver and use it to drive the television receiver.
I'm asking why I'd need my television receiver if I had a DTV receiver.
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Not really a call for that yet. For example, I have a Samsung DTB-H260F for my LCD TV, and it works reasonably well (some problems with HDCP... sometimes it works, sometimes not). That can downconvert, but the problem is the menus and such aren't sent out the coaxial/S-video outputs, only the component and HDMI outputs. So you can see the actual program, but y
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For the money you would spend on one now, you could buy an actual HDTV in 2009. And, it won't matter anyway, since the converters will be essentially free b
Cheat Sheet (Score:5, Informative)
(From Wikipedia) The FCC has issued the following mandates for devices entering the US:
* By July 1, 2005 all televisions with screen sizes over 36" must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner
* By March 1, 2006 all televisions with screen sizes over 25" must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner
* By March 1, 2007 all televisions regardless of screen size, and all interface devices which include a tuner (VCR, DVD player/recorder, DVR) must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner
That's 3 days from now, AND includes things like TV tuner cards, which explains why companies like Hauppauge just released a "budget" dual NTSC/ATSC line, the HVR-950/1600.
* A Congressional bill has authorized subsidizing converter boxes that would allow people to receive the new digital broadcasts on their old TVs. The current plan is to make two $40 coupons available from January 1, 2008 through March 31, 2009 for each household that relies exclusively on over-the-air television reception.
* In the United States, the switch-off of all analog terrestrial TV broadcasts has been mandated for no later than February 17, 2009. Legislation setting this deadline was signed into law in early 2006. Currently, most U.S. broadcasters are beaming their signals in both analog and digital formats; a few are digital-only.
So, expect to see ATSC tuners become more plentiful in early 2008, once the subsidies start rolling in.
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--jeffk++
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From 47 CFR 15.117:
PCI and USB TV tuner cards generally d
more curious... (Score:2)
I have a gianormous HDTV-capable antenna on my house, and we live in a usually-good-occasionally crappy reception area, probably 35 mi from the broadcast antennas. I would very much like to know if I plunk down $300 for an HDTV tuner, am I going to get decent quality, or am I going to get crap (particulary if, as I understand, analog signals that occasionally have a sparkle of static will completely CUT OUT if they are instead being picked up as digital broadcasts...).
Wou
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According to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/hints.html [hdtvprimer.com], that isn't entirely true. The analog signal doesn't necessarily give you any indication as to how well you receive the digital signal.:
Dish Network can help you (Score:2)
Not Exactly an Answer, but (Score:2)
Shouldn't be too difficult to hook a UHF cable up to one of these
Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)
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Sorry, I have no desire to get satellite or cable. There's no way I'm going to pay money to watch commercials.
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Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)
Junior Guard: "Oh no!! The prison is out of control! Help!!!"
Senior Guard: "We must stop this prison at once! Call the commisioner!"
(crashing sounds, scraping metal)
Junior Guard: "Theres no time! We can't stop it!!"
(prisoner 4812 enters the room)
Prisoner 4812: "I can stop this prison. Using the brake."
Senior Guard: "You? But, you are a prisoner! Exactly why should I trust you?!?"
Prisoner 4812: "Because I'm the only one who can stop this prison, dammit!"
(more crashing sounds, ground shakes uncontrollably)
Senior Guard: "Make it so."
Will they stop the prison in time? Will prisoner 4812 double cross the senior guard?
Patrick Stewart guest stars in an unforgettable episode of Prison Brake!
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And those are pretty much the only shows I actually watch, as in make an effort to see. There's a half dozen other shows that are entertaining if the TV happens to be on when they come on. Studio 60, Lost (mostly because of its crazy-ridiculous plot), Numb3rs (though it's getting worse season to season), Supernatural, and uh... that's all I can think of.
And what's wrong
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1. Sports: ESPN, ESPN2, FoxSports are all _necessary_ during football season. Vs is necessary for watching cycling...
2. Discovery Channel: Dirty Jobs! Myth Busters! Not too mention all the stuff on Discovery HD.
3. USA: Monk! Psych! 4400!
3. I also tend to watch a lot of stuff on MHD (Love the live concerts!), INHD, and UNHD (Surface! Firefly!)
Sadly, that's about it. But I do watch enough that it isn't too hard to justify the cost. The sports alone justifies the
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South Park
Reno 911
Daily Show
Colbert Report
Stargate SG-1
Stargate Atlantis
Battlestar Galactica
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Mythbusters
Headbangers Ball
Because (Score:3, Funny)
-Charlie
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See other responses for more.
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Note: This was a rhetorical question. I don't need you to tell me what I'm missing; I know there are some swell pay-only programs out there. But the bottom line for me is that I already get all the couch-potato-format entertainment I'm interested in (maybe 5-7 hours/week September-thru-May) over the air for free. I'd like to continue getting it two years from now, so I'll definitely be buying one of those i
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Um, actually, the ATSC standard does specify a format for guide information and such. And I've seen it when I was doing the OTA thing with my tuner (right now I'm back to getting the local HD channels off cable). Some stations were concientious about filling it in, some weren't. But it's there and I expect it to do better. I don't think it goes more than a few hours in advance, though.
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I use BeyondTV as my PVR (has plenty of guide data for my analog cable, OTA HD, and OTA analog channels). I could have opted for a
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Make that less than two MONTHS. Comcast runs >$50 for standard service (no premium channels). A Channel Master CM4221 is $25, a CM7777 pre-amp about $30, add in a few bucks in shipping, installation hardware and cable and install it myself (as I did) and that's it. There's no need to get separate antennas for multiple TVs (that's why the pre-amp is there
ask your gov (Score:2)
How do I obtain and redeem converter box coupons?
Between January 1, 2008 and March 31, 2009, eligible households can request up to two coupons, each valued at $40. All coupons will be sent to requesting households via the United States Postal Service. Recipients must redeem the coupons within 3 months of issuance, but may not combine their two coupons toward the purchase of a single converter box and may not use them for other products.
Can you provide
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I can't justify signing up for any other services to make my bill (relatively sky rocket). Luckily, my Tv has a built in QAM and ATSC Tuner so i'm able to catch whatever signals are being sent OTA and unencrypted.
A sizable minority uses OTA (Score:2)
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I have no cable or satellite TV. I get four analog channels over the air, and one of those is in french.
I could get cable/satellite/TV-over-DSL but I choose not to pay the extra money. I'd rather spend it on other things.
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If you consider cable rates "cheap", I have some "cheap" long distance and electrical services I'd like to resell to you.
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It's not that the cost of cable/satellite TV programming is out of my reach, but I really dislike paying for someone to show advertisements to me.
MOD PARENT UP!If they're sending ads down the pipe then I shouldn't have to pay for it. PERIOD. And guess what, I WON'T pay for it. PERIOD.
IMHO, only complete morons pay to have someone fill their eyeballs with SPAM...
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It may surprise you that most of the people who do buy those are not only not morons, they're actually literate.
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Don't knock PBS. They have the best content of all OTA broadcast television signals. In a couple weeks I will be moving to a location where OTA television is the only option (aside from satellite). My only problem with this? GPB [gpb.org] isn't broadcasting an HD signal yet. I should be able to get PBA [pba.org], but I prefer GPB's schedule to PBA's. But, since they are both PBS stations, I will still be able to get my News Hour [pbs.org] fix; albeit, and hour later than on GPB.
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I imagine you could use a HD-5500 [pchdtv.com] to do it. It supports unencrypted QAM signals. If you put the box behind your Comcast box, I assume it would get the QAM signals unencrypted (the set-top box should be decrypting the channels based on your subscription level).
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Now, if you have a device that has a CableCARD, that is a different story. If you have a CableCARD device, you shouldn'