Buying a Domain From a Cybersquatter 800
Nevo writes "A partner and I are in the planning stages of a business. We've decided on a name that we'd like to use but the domain name is already registered. The owner has a single 'search' page up (similar to the one at www.goggle.com)... clearly not a legitimate business interest, but since we don't own a trademark on this name it doesn't qualify as bad faith, I don't think. Does anyone have any experience buying domains from these operators? Do you have any advice on how to approach the owners of these domains to get them at a reasonable cost?"
Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
The last thing you need to realize is that whatever money you give this guy is just going to fund him to buy up more domains and keep his hands on others longer. If you wanted to do the most conscious thing for the community, you would just find another domain and not give this scum one red cent.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A co-worker of mine did that for a while.
He purchased a bunch of green bullshit names and then put add pages on them. When people contacted him about purchase he would be like, well it means a lot too me and I want to start a site, but I haven't done much yet, what is it worth to you?
Generally that was the end f it, but pretty much any offer was accepted.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Funny)
A co-worker of mine did that for a while.
He purchased a bunch of green bullshit names and then put add pages on them. When people contacted him about purchase he would be like, well it means a lot too me and I want to start a site, but I haven't done much yet, what is it worth to you?
Generally that was the end f it, but pretty much any offer was accepted.
I'd like to meet your coworker in the alley behind where you work. If you give him a whole bunch of whiskey so that he can barely stand before he gets there, maybe I could offer you some money once the trunk of my car shuts?
...
It would mean a lot to me
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Interesting)
So the flip side:
I have a client that is three years past due on paying me for hosting & registrations...
(yeah, I know, shame on me mostly).
Anyway, yes she's three years past due on 5 active domains (all redir to one site). I've been covering her, but in reality I'm planning on taking all but one domain and "parking them". Nice older gal, trying to make some money selling artwork. I'm willing to charity case one domain for her, but not five.
Now the million dollar question:
Am I a sleeze for parking the other four domains and trying to sell them? (I think not).
-nB
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't agree. Let's suppose owned a prime piece of real estate right next to an interstate exit ramp. So far nobody's offered anything, but if an Exxon or McDonalds approached me, am I "scum" because I ask for a lot of money to sell my real estate? No it's kind opportunity cost. If they want to setup show in a highly-visible location, then they'll have to pay for it.
Or they could put their station/restaurant someplace else (1 mile away) that's less-visible but cheaper to buy. Same applies to website r
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem of course is that a domain name is not a piece of land.
In meatspace, if a business sets up in a poor location, it affects their traffic because it is a PHYSICAL business. More importantly, no land = no business. On the internet, very few people even type URLs anymore, they google everything. All that domain registration does is place a few letters in the address bar of people's browsers. We could probably go back to publishing dotted IP addresses and the common imbecile would not notice nor care, as long as google can find it.
For those mental midgets who require an analogy, you're not squatting a piece of land, it's more like an unlit signpost.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
All that domain registration does is place a few letters in the address bar of people's browsers.
Slightly off-topic for the subject at hand - but it is also necessary for a browser to decide if an ssl certificate is appropriate for a given website, and allows for virtualhosts on a single web server. And allows smtp to work.
IP Address (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the real tricky part though. If you change your web host (and thus change IP address) all the work you've done to improve your Google ranking (not to mention links from other websites, bookmarks, etc) is gone and you'd have to start over again. Having a URL is still a necessity (though having a memorable URL is not as important as it once was).
Not quite that simple (Score:5, Insightful)
In meatspace, if a business sets up in a poor location, it affects their traffic because it is a PHYSICAL business. More importantly, no land = no business. On the internet, very few people even type URLs anymore, they google everything. All that domain registration does is place a few letters in the address bar of people's browsers.
Of course, the name does enormous things for your placement in google. Just do a google search for "buy flowers": at least half the results have the search the search terms right in the domain name. This is not a coincidence. If the name describes what you do and is also your branded name, your success in google is almost guaranteed.
Having a domain name that describes your company is tremendously important for a variety of reasons, not least of which is google ranking. Further, with modern browsers, the address bar searches your history. If you have your name or your product in the domain, this helps people find you a second time. Google Chrome is even better: search and address bar are the same. While I despise these people who park pages, their price is usually worth it if you are a company and the name is good.
So, in the cyber-world, picking the name actually does make a big difference in the amount of traffic you get. Having "widgets.com" really is the equivalent of being off of the highway, while "example.com/widgets" is really miles down the road.
Also, giving up domain names means completely abdicating your surfing to search engines and people who know SEO. Not a good idea.
Re:Not quite that simple (Score:4, Insightful)
You make a lot of good points, but I have to wonder (respectfully, not mockingly) - Have you ever watched a non-geek "go" to a specific web site?
Fact #1 - They run Windows.
Fact #2 - They use the default browser (MSIE).
Fact #3 - They use the default homepage (MSN), or at best, have changed this to Google.
Now, when you stand there and tell such a person to, for example, "go to www.slashdot.org", they will, without fail, proceed to type "www.slashdot.org" into the MSN search box.
So while I agree with everything you said in principle (and expect it holds true for most advanced computer users), in practice, the GP had it right... The URL doesn't matter, because the vast majority of people don't even realize they can type things directly into the address bar - This really does boil down to the old Microsoft joke of "Where do we want you to go today?".
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
It's nearly as annoying as the people who set up their site on www.example.com (or whatever) and don't bother making example.com point to the same place. Half-wits!
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Funny)
It's nothing personal; just business.
When watching movies, people cheer when the douchebag that keeps saying this gets shot to death (or fed into a wood chipper, or boiled alive, etc.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The big difference, the cost of land is a significantly higher then the cost of a domain, registering a domain for $15 and sitting on it trying to sell it for $5000, is wrong if then intent is to register 1000's of domains and sell them for profit, especially when many of those domains are not even paid for and are just domain tasting (google it, I am not going to explain it).
If you want to spend a few million dollars on 1000's of various physical properties, thats a different story, you put out the money,
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The difference is that cybersquatters use trademarks that essentially don't belong to them and that which they have no intention of using. While real estate costs real money, registering domain names is usually a negligable fee.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Interesting)
Bad analogy. More like (where domain tasting in in play, which is a fair portion of the time) you have a shop selling land at a given price for the area. You then prevent anyone entering this shop to bid on the land at a fair price, so nobody can buy it.
You then sit a crack hut on this site, and claim that "it's a fair use", and you take a cut of the crack sales as "rent".
When the rest of the area becomes built up (by whatever means), all of a sudden, this piece of land is valuable, but still nobody can get in to buy this plot of land from the vendor, at the fair price.
One day, somebody asks to purchase this, and you quote them a price 100 fold the price of the surrounding land plots, because otherwise they can take the business elsewhere.
It's legal, but it's definitely not ethical.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's like what Ticketmaster does.
Thinking about it, the domain name problem is more like Ticket Scalping than squatting. In this case, it's not "cybersquatting" because the poster is trying to pick out a name... on the other hand the meaningful names are all taken by somebody who happened to be in line first and bought a bunch of stuff they didn't need.. like a ticket scalper does. Rules are pretty harsh against ticket scalpers, even though they generally paid their cash up front to get the tickets fair a
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Let's suppose land is very cheap. There are a lot of valid businesses and families who would like to build offices and houses. Unfortunately, somebody with no interest in the land at all got there first, bought all the land, and is now selling it for a ten thousand times as much as he paid.
Sure, it's legal. Perhaps it's even a valid business. But he's still a scumbag because he's doing nothing productive other than costing people money who actually want to do something productive.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
As the original question is about purchasing a name for a company he hasn't started yet. That's not technically "cybersquatting", they got his name first. I agree, this is more of a "gold rush" issue where people stake claims on a bunch of land they don't intend to work, just in case somebody else might make money off "their" domain idea. The way the government dealt with it was requiring presence and requiring taxes be paid to keep physical land based on it's value, if you can't afford the property tax, then the land gets redistributed to somebody that can make enough money from the property to pay it.... There used to be a time "real" land was just as plentiful as domain names.. and we did just fine.
I think the solution was ICANN's idea to make the 20 cent fee non refundable, or to force registrars to actually take the money and stop "tasting" periods. Most of the professionals aren't paying, they just keep "tasting" names between shell companies. If there was a little bit of "treading water" added it would be more costly. It would still happen, but people would have to pay the $10 so they'd be "stuck" with it... for 10 or even 100 names that's not much money, but for the 10,000 these guys are running it would at least tie up their wallets.
Capitalist Pig-Dogs (Score:5, Insightful)
Without getting all commie, people who have a lot of money, or opportunity, or options, always whine "It's nothing personal, just business." When you have the option to buy domains and sell them for 100x-1000x the price, why wouldn't you? Legally, of course, it's totally legit. Ethically, it's totally not. And I'll tell you why.
When you buy a piece of land, the law assumes that you are doing your bit to maintain and develop that land. In fact, most property law revolves around that idea of having to put work into it. You pay taxes on it, and you are generally expected to be doing something to maintain it's value. When a property falls into total - or dangerous - disrepair, they come to you with the fines. If your sidewalk is hazardous, you can get sued. This is all considered the price of ownership.
With domains, there is no such cost associated. In fact, all that buying up domains does is suck money from actual wealth-generating sectors of the economy. If I start a business called AwesomeWorldChangingWidgets, I can't get that domain if you're squatting on it without first paying you way more for that domain than you did. Now, if you were society at large, and that additional value was being spread across those people who help to bring value to the domain name itself (such as the internet routers, the municipalities that maintain fiber, ICANN, or any of the host of other sectors that make the Internet viable), that would be fair. But you're just taking the money and running: you're taking the money for someone else's work.
The only complaint anyone ever has with capitalism is the 'I got here first' problem. When you start out with resources others didn't have a fair opportunity at, and then exchange them for disproportionately large sums of money, you're playing into this. Yes, it makes your life easier, but you've only helped yourself - and at the expense of literally everyone else. That makes you unethical.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So real state speculation in a capitalist society is frowned upon now? Here's a solution: Move to Cuba or Venezuela, you'll be happier there.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
Not only that, but speculation is also the root cause of every financial collapse in modern history (except those caused by war), including the one we're going through now. It's not just "jackassery," it's also harmful to society at large!
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
There. Fixed that for you.
Debt is indentured servitude.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if you are speculating that training will provide you with the skills to get a job? How about if you are an employer and you are speculating that hiring some kid fresh out of school will bring profit or new ideas to the company?
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Informative)
Speculation of any sort should be frowned upon in our society. I'm all for capitalisim and making a profit, but buying something just so you can turn around and sell it to someone else for more money, without having made any improvements is just jackassery.
While "speculators" are the current MostEvilThing (tm); they provide a valuable service to an economy.
Consider firms that hedge commodities that they use - if they can't add certainty to their costs through hedges they are at the mercy of market swings. In order to hedge, someone needs to take an opposite position - both sides are speculating on future prices; to reap a potential benefit.
Speculation is not the problem; the failure to quantify risks and understand what you are actually buying is what causes problems.
People buy many things - stocks, land, art, coins - as investments they hope will increase in value. Just because they stick them in a box and wait does not mean they are being jackasses.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
By your reasoning, the Mafia's protection rackets in the 1920s and '30s would have been perfectly legitimate, since there was no legal system to prevent it.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the same if you buy anything from anybody. Do you believe that domain names should not be bought and sold but handed out by Santa according to who is good and who is naughty? If you accept that people have the right to resell domain names they own, it's entirely their own business what fee to charge. Of course if someone else owns something you want, and won't give it up without payment, it's natural to feel aggrieved and vilify the other person. That doesn't mean they are scum. It is the odd system of domain names and artificial scarcity that causes domain names to have a high value. Either pay what it's worth (and no, what it's worth is not the same as 'the price I think I should be able to buy it for') or choose a different domain.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
Car robbers add value.
Car robbers add value for car owners. If I own a car, don't care about money and decide I don't want it anymore, I can wait for a robber to take the car. Without a car robber, I'd have to sell it myself.
Car robber also add value for car purchasers who want to pay a smaller price. Assume the car shop is selling used cars for $50,000. But people are willing to pay $10,000. Car robbers allocate the cars to those who are willing to pay $2,000 for the car.
I fully support car robbers and do not understand the hatred for them.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful)
You're either a total fucking idiot, or a scalper. Not that there's a lot of difference.
"Scalpers add value for ticket owners. If I own a ticket, and decide I don't want to go to the event anymore, I can sell it to a scalper. Without a scalper, I'd have to sell it myself. This ready secondary market benefits the ticket holder.
Except you casually ignore the fact that scalpers buy tickets by the grundle as much as they can, using programs to spam buy tickets from websites, sending teams to ticket boots to buy group lots, etc. So what this does is make it harder for legitimate ticker purchasers to buy tickets at face-value. I have had this happen to me at least twice in the last year where a concert goes on sale, and an hour later all of the GA tickets are gone. Yet sure as hell , there are plenty available on craigslist IMMEDIATELY afterwards for over twice face-value. Scalpers don't add value by allowing you to sell a ticket you don't want anymore - that's what craigslist is for. Your example of them being these benevolent middlemen just trying to help the consumer is bullshit. If you can't sell a ticket yourself over the INTERNET, you're a fucking moron. PAYING someone to sell it for you just proves that point tenfold.
Scalpers also add value for ticket purchasers who are willing to pay the price. Assume the box office is selling tickets to an event for $35. But people are willing to pay $100 for the event. Scalpers allocate the tickets to those who are willing to pay $100 for the ticket. Then the $100 buyer need not wait in line all night and sleep in the rain to get a ticket. The scalper also benefits the person who decides to go to the event at the last minute, and is willing to pay the price. (All this of course comes at the expense of those who are willing to wait all night for the $35 ticket, but will not or cannot pay $100 for the ticket.)
I fail to see where these people who WANT to pay 3x the price of a ticket are coming from. If you ask all these people "willing" to pay $100 for a ticket if they would choose having one for them available at $35 because no one is scalping them, or $100 for the convenience of someone else buying them first, which do you think they will pick? Do you know many people who LIKE being overcharged? No? Then I have news for you buddy -- jacking up the price of an item because you got it first doesn't 'value add' anything.
Scalpers are scumbags who take advantage of the fact that people have jobs, lives, etc. It would be nice if the fairy-tale world you lived in where scalpers were providing a legitimate service abounded, but that's not the case. Sure, in some cases it's nice to be able to get those last minute tickets to a sold out show. That's a far cry different than not being able to attend your favorite show in GA because some jackass bought 2000 tickets to scalp an hour before you get off work. And that's the reality of scalpers - they cheat the system to abuse the loyalty of fans so they can pocket some cash for themselves.
Domain squatters are similar. They help allocate the good domains to those who are willing to pay for them.
Domain Squatters are pretty much the same in my opinion. These are scumbags and jerkoffs who see a chance to maybe make some quick cash for a little initial investment. They're not interested in preserving the integrity of your domain name, or selling it to someone who will really 'build a business' . They're in it for themselves, only themselves, and they will generally fuck you until you're blind if it means making an extra dime.
Just this weekend I heard of ancestry.com. I instantly knew what it was. That great name saved the business from having to build a brand. If it had been "avalea.com" instead, I would have said "what's that?" This domain should be allocated to someone who is willing to put the capital into building a good busin
artist and fans get ripped off (Score:4, Interesting)
Ticketmaster is guilty of this. Bruce Springstein did a series of concerts and wanted his regular street-level fans to be able to attend. Ticketmaster and Bruce's management agreed upon a range of ticket prices.
Ticketmaster operates a few subsidiary companies that also sell tickets. These companies bought the Springstein tickets at face value and turned around and sold them with a scalper's mark-up [perezhilton.com]. The common folk were then priced out of the Bruce Springstein concerts and the Boss didn't see any of that premium pricing in the form of additional revenue.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Informative)
I appreciate the idealism here, but it isn't always so simple. We paid a squatter $3k for our domain when we really had better things to spend our money on; that was 5% of our start-up capital. We still regard it as the best investment we made. (Our original name was 25 characters and we got down to 7)
Just be sure to set up a backup domain name in case things fall through and to give yourself better bargaining position. I think he wanted $6k for it.
Another word to the wise-- don't make a domain extortion be your first purchase for a start-up. Sort out more important things first like getting clients. If your web presence is all you have going, things get harder.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
(Our original name was 25 characters and we got down to 7)
Aarrggh?
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Funny)
No no no, it's "Aaaaauuuugggghhhh", from the back of the throat.
I've bought one for a client (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a perfect example of a situation where the first person to throw out a number loses.
In our cases the client had their .co.uk and needed their com too. This was back in 96 so even though they were a publicly-traded company with trademarks in multiple countries it wasn't clear that it could be enforced. The board of directors got together and established something like a $15k budget to get the name back.
I emailed the guy and he threw out $350. I literally ran to the bank and did an international wire transfer from my personal funds.
Worked out well for us, but what a fucking idiot :)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Funny)
Make an offer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Make an offer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The way to go is to register your trademark before trading under it - as a lot of people have painfully found out.
Re:Make an offer (Score:5, Informative)
Resisting urge to curse
I've owned a domain name in .org that is my cat's name. It's been a personal domain since then. Someone registered the .net variant of it and then trademarked the name. The .com variant was parked for years by a third party. I did a backorder on the .com and got it, and registered it.
About a year later the guy with the .net started to threaten me because he got a trademark on the name and wanted both the .org and .com. I offered to turn over the .com at no profit to myself because I didn't really need it nor was using it, but then he starts to insist I also turn over the .org variant as well.
I stood my ground and threatened to fight him as much as it took in court if necessary and sent him numerous cases where trademark doesn't mean ownership of the corresponding domain, especially if that domain is in active use and was around before the trademark.
He eventually dropped his demand for the .org.
And to think I just let him have the .com at my cost as well. I should have just let it get snapped up by a squatter and he'd have spent thousands for it.
Re:Make an offer (Score:4, Interesting)
Choose a name that someone's already using, and then seize their domain for using that name?
In my understanding using and obvious cybersquatting isn't the same thing in court. If I'm not mistaken these issues [dmoz.org] occur very frequently, sort of. A while back Madonna sezied madonna.com, which was used as a legitimate adult site, not related to madonna at all. Madonna means virgin, which of course is also very related to the porn industry, so it wasn't a question of copying Madonnas brand, but rather another use for the name. Of course Madonna won this case, as you understand, and thus she could seize madonna.com.
:)
This example might not be 100% related to the issue at hand, but it proves that domain seizures due to trademark can and have occurred across markets.
And FYI just because there was no outrage on Slashdot it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Re:Make an offer (Score:4, Informative)
A while back Madonna sezied madonna.com, which was used as a legitimate adult site,
Actually, while it had been used as an adult site in the past, when Madonna sued for it the site was simply squatting the domain. From the WIPO Complaint: [wipo.int]
But the most damning bit:
So IMHO, this guy was a squatter and deserved to have madonna.com taken away. It takes some brass balls to register wallstreetjournal.com :)
Re:Make an offer (Score:5, Funny)
do you need to rent a baseball bat?
Depending on the part of the world he is located in you may have to use a cricket bat. Don't worry, Gartner says that most hired thugs cross skill on these alternatives with a very shallow learning curve.
Financing Options Available (Score:5, Interesting)
I was at a wedding over the weekend and one of the people at our table was talking about how their son runs a fairly profitable business in providing capital specifically for the purchasing of domain names. I can't recall if the business model involved a fixed interest rate, or a percentage of income, but it's the sort thing i never thought you could finance. I wonder how long before they start packaging them and selling them as securities on Wall Street :-)
-Chris
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Could be a story in that.
How badly do you need that address? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't sound too interested when talking to them, mention possible alternatives. Lower your offer if the negotiations drag out - cybersquatters are in this for the money, and not selling the name means that they're not making any.
Re:How badly do you need that address? (Score:5, Insightful)
Clarification: Mention the existence of possible alternatives, but not what they are (or they'll be cybersquatted, too).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, if you decide that you can live without and register a completely different address then tell them all of the alternative versions they've missed that you can come up with. Even if it is just a small fee per variation for them to register you are doing your bit to make the whole thing less profitable.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, if you decide that you can live without and register a completely different address then tell them all of the alternative versions they've missed that you can come up with. Even if it is just a small fee per variation for them to register you are doing your bit to make the whole thing less profitable.
"Here's a non-exhaustive list of possible alternatives we are considering: *insert half a bajillion randomly-created combinations of letters (checked for potential trademarks or alread-existing sites
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I recently looked into a (cybersquatted) domain for a client. The squatter wanted $3000.00. We said, "Take a hike." Over the next few weeks I received unsolicited offers, each one for less money. Eventually the price went below 1K, then to make-an-offer.
I was determined that my client not give these scumbags any money, so I advised against making any offers, and finally told the scumbag, "No, seriously, take hike!"
My client went with an alternative that turned out to be a better choice because he was able t
no (Score:5, Insightful)
If your business plan depends on owning one specific domain then your business plan sucks.
Be Crafty - negotiate well. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Be Crafty - negotiate well. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would suggest finding another Domain that they own and first asking them if you could buy that one. That will give you a high end price. Tell them no thank you. Wait a day and say you also like the real one. Then offer to buy it at 1/2 the price they gave for the first one.
Above all else, be prepared to walk away. It's only a domain name, there are lots of others, and if the guy isn't willing to give you a decent price you can afford to pay, tell him you're not interested. It's like buying a car: there's lots of wiggle room (even more than there is with a car!). Just like in poker, you always wait until the absolute last minute to show 'em your cards.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You could also try waiting till the domain expires and they have to renew and try to register it then before they do. That takes time and cunning skills.
There are so many people lined up to buy expiring domains that you really have to pay fees to a service [mikeindustries.com] that can pound the system with purchase requests to get one that way.
It's not going to happen (Score:3, Insightful)
What do you think the name is worth? $100? $500? They'll want at least 10x that much. If you're willing to pay through the nose, then go ahead, but these people will do whatever is necessary to squeeze every last penny from you.
I would suggest either a different TLD, a different name, or a variation on the name: "MyBizInc.com" instead of "MyBiz.com".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's not going to happen (Score:5, Interesting)
I offered to cover a squatter's registration costs, $10/month hosting costs since he purchased the domain, and a 10% premium for the domain. This worked out to $120-ish.
He laughed at me and said he got that much profit a year out of letting the domain just sit and serve ads.
So we went and bought .band, .info, and .net instead for less than $120.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Possibly? It's guaranteed a lie. Some of my Medium traffic sites, ones that get about 350-400 visitors a day dont net more than $80.00 a year in ad revenue. Plus I have real content not a clickfarm like a parked domain is.
Ideas (Score:5, Interesting)
One option already noted is giving a reasonable offer and sticking with it.
Another option is simply asking for a quote, but don't for the love of god tell them you're planning a business. Rather just send an informal message in the style of "I think $domain is a cool name, yadda yadda...".
Personally I'd opt for trying to figure out a name for the business that's not taken. Nonsense words that are easy to learn and not profanity in major languages are good bets.
You really need help with this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely the process is pretty simple,
Send the guy an email asking if the domain is for sale. If the owner is a *pinky to mouth* "One million dollars", kind of guy, it is unlikely that there is any approach you can take that will force him away from a ridiculous price anyway. The only advice that seems valid is, "Don't make the email sound like you are both wealthy and desperate".
Personally, I would make it a short one line email, "Is this domain for sale? If so, please respond with your asking price", then just take it from there. I like to believe that there is nobody that is still stuck in the late 90's when it comes to cybersquat domain prices, but you never know. If the price you get back from him indicates that he is acting like a 90's squatter just email back with, "Ok, thank you". Keep it terse, and keep the ball in his court. Most of all, don't get attached to this particular domain until *your* name is on the whois!
My suggestion (Score:4, Funny)
Murder in the first. ;)
Re:My suggestion (Score:5, Funny)
low ball (Score:5, Insightful)
in that experience, i realized that some squatters are just one or two guys that sat around and registered a ton of domains for a couple of dollars a piece. they are going to use the car salesman mentality by "hit em really high... then scrape them off the ceiling so you can get the price you want to sell for". so they slap you with the $2000 as their asking price knowing that you won't pay it. they know that you won't come back with a $50 offer since their first offer was so high. if they had first said $500, then you probably wouldn't offer them as much. if you really want to play their game and you are just getting started, it might be safe to just kill your webserver while you are on the phone with them so that they can't see what type of company you are or if you has the money bags.
anyway, just go into it like you are buying a car. don't seem too interested or you will pay way more than you should.
Make up another name (Score:5, Insightful)
Many of the successful internet companies make up their own name. google, hulu, reddit, slashdot, etc. Make up a word that doesn't exist and go with it.
Maybe use a subdomain? (Score:5, Insightful)
So if you want greatsite.com but thats taken then register blah.com and create a subdomain greatsite.blah.com
Down the track you may be able to snap up the domain you originally wanted, or you may have a better idea by then.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
news.google.com is just as good for google as news.com would be because browsers autocomplete from left to right.
No, news.google.com is good for google because the fame of the google name carries through, and because it's well linked from the google web page which is hit billions of times a day.
If you're as famous as google, sure, you can name a page something like gzornik.com if you want and you will get traffic.
Don't play by their rules. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I had something pretty similar a couple of weeks back. I got an email from someone squatting on the domain "lovesthepython.com", basically along the lines of "You need to buy lovesthepython.com because you have lovesthepython.org and your website is missing out on traffic because it needs to be .com or people won't think it's a legitimate website" kind of pish. They were asking IIRC $1000 for it.
I emailed them back saying that a) there is no website or indeed anything at all at lovesthepython.org because
Obvious Solution (Score:5, Funny)
Three pieces of advice (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a quick warning: there's a lot of scamming in the domain marktplace. It's easy for scammers to get you to buy, then never transfer the domain.
1. Set your PayPal account to draw against a credit card, not your bank account. You have both your credit card's consumer protections as well as PayPal's this way, the difference being you can actually get someone on the phone at your credit card company. When they yank the money from PayPal, suddenly PayPal will care.
2. Use an escrow service. Buyer puts the money in, you transfer the domain, and then you get paid. Most scams happen when people do direct purchases. Lots of domainers use escrow.com. It works.
3. Make sure you are dealing with a legitimate business or a real person. A little due diligence goes a long way.
Easy (Score:5, Funny)
Don't look big (Score:5, Insightful)
How it's done - info from "the other side" (Score:5, Informative)
First of all what you are describing is not cybersquating - it's no trademark, not a domain typo - there is no bad faith. The domain has been registered by a domainer - a domain trader that buys premium domains treating them as an investment.
When you type in the domain name you will see a domain parking page - a website filled with some adds in order to earn some money to finance the cost of domain renewal plus sometimes a few bucks extra. The domain is not indexed by google - it's a mutual agreement between large domain parkings and google - not in index, yet with google ads.
As the domain is not registered as a clear example of cybersquating (and so is not getting a lot of traffic) you can be pretty sure it's for sale - that's where we earn money.
The domain value is based on (in no particular order): .com is the most expensive
1. domain length - the shorter the more expensive.
2. tld -
3. the acctual domain name - if it is just a bunch of unpronaucable letters it will be cheap, if it's a word it will cost ya, especially if it means something. some random examples ghdn.com < geen.com < geek.com
If you want to buy the domain make an offer, but a fair one or you will be added to ignore list after the first message. We get loads of offers which are too low by two-three orders of magnitude and reading all off them is not really an option.
Once you agree on the price do use one of the domain markets that offers escrow - sorry I can't really point you to a speciffic site, as I deal exlusively in eastern european tlds and we have some local markets.
I disagree (Score:4, Insightful)
If you buy domain names on speculation, you're a cybersquatter - someone who reserves space for no reason other than to occupy the space a resell it. There is no legitimate reason to hoard domains, except to capitalize on the scarcity.
Now, since you appear to be a cybersquatter, I can see how you are a bit touchy and are looking to legitimize your business plan. That's fine. That's why houses are called "resales" and not "used." A "Domainer" (aside from sounding like something out of Waterworld) is just a nicer name for a cybersquatter - but you do the exact same thing.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I disagree (Score:4, Informative)
Well, diamonds aren't really scarce. People horde them to make it seem as if they are.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While I don't agree with your definition of cybersquatting (and therefore I don't consider myself a cybersquatter) I certainly see why you don't like what I do. Any business that makes you pay more for a services or goods that are served on first comes first served basis will make people angry. It's exactly the same with gold phone numers, except that there is no central control of the market (like the phone company).
Re:I disagree (Score:4, Insightful)
The only benefit you offer anyone is your absence.
That should be your eulogy. "All he had to offer us was his absence. We gather today to celebrate his only significant achievement."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no legitimate reason to hoard domains, except to capitalize on the scarcity.
That's true of real estate, precious gems, and oil/natural gas as well. Why is domaining "wrong" and those other speculative businesses "right?"
If you're griping just because you didn't buy up domains when expensive ones were cheap-- well, I wasn't able to buy up land around Lake Washington when it was cheap either. Sometimes you just have to cope.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In a very real sense, domain squatting is a very negative economic investment for everyone except the squatter. When you hoard a resource, that resource does not lose any of its value or utility, but with an artificial resource like a domain (which unlike oil or diamonds cannot
Re:How it's done - info from "the other side" (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want to buy the domain make an offer, but a fair one or you will be added to ignore list after the first message. We get loads of offers which are too low by two-three orders of magnitude and reading all off them is not really an option.
I think this is the key sticking point. What is "too low"? We all know that your costs are $10 per year (probably less due to bulk, but let's just go with that number) plus some administrative $$$'s. We know that the domains do generate some income from ads. This isn't a case of having registered McDonalds.com because that was your name and you can sell it to the company for 1 bazillion dollars. It's a speculation. I'm ok with some level of "profit" or reward for that but there is no brand associated with the domain already (*you* aren't marketing it), so what constitutes reasonable? I think that $500 is on the high end of what an undeveloped domain name is worth, but when I see $5,000, that just floors me. The key being that the domain is undeveloped. Marketing is the key to whether a domain is successful or not and speculative registration does nothing for that.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What benefits are you providing to the customer?
As far as I can tell, you seem to be similar to a real estate housing "flipper", who shops around for low-priced houses, and immediately sells it for more, without providing the buyer any services other than a higher price.
In a word, you are not generating anything of value.
Is this illegal? No, by no means, and I don't think it should be. It's just a parasitical business model that is bad for the community overall. Real estate flipping is one of the (many)
You say potato, I say ... (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all what you are describing is not cybersquating (sp)
Ok...
The domain has been registered by a domainer - a domain trader that buys premium domains treating them as an investment.
That's the definition of a cybersquatter. Domainer is what cybersquatters call themselves -- it's like how mobsters call themselves "legitimate businessmen".
it's no trademark, not a domain typo - there is no bad faith.
That's just a subset of cybersquatter. I think we used to use the word "domain scalper" for these guys, b
Ask about multiple domain prices (Score:4, Insightful)
Do a search with some of the "Buy this Premium Domain" sites to see if he has listed any of his sites to see how reasonable he is. Those prices are usually 1-2x's a real max bid starting point.
When you do ask for a price, ask him for the price of several of his domains at once. Act like you are not specifically interested in just of those domains and any would work for you. Maybe pretend to be another reseller interested in building your portfolio.
Some of the other advice above is also good. Don't be desparate, and the first email should be very short.
Your customers won't care (Score:5, Insightful)
They will not type in your company name in the URL bar and add .com. They will type your company name into google and click on the result. If they're recurring customers, they will bookmark your page.
URLs are no longer really important. I know people who have no idea what that funny bar on top of their browser is for that displays some funky random characters whenever they click on a link and a page loads.
Re:Your customers won't care (Score:4, Insightful)
She's not alone, this is the norm rather than the exception.
I do a little adult education as a side job, often as a trainer for computer illiterates wanting to understand a bit more about their box. For them the simplest solution is often to have google or some other search site as their home page and typing whatever page they want into the google search bar. Trying to tell them that this is what the URL bar is for confuses them, and often results in them (rightfully) telling me that this way they often get to some other search page (=domain squatter) that confuses them. Google usually delivers what they are looking for.
When looking for something specific from a company it's also often faster to type what you're looking for in google instead of searching it at the page. If you want drivers for for your HP 1100 printer, type "hp 1100 drivers" into google rather than going to hp.com and trying to navigate there. It's simply faster. Even if you know what you're doing.
And certainly for someone who has no knowledge about computers.
If you want proof that people don't care for URLs, check out the plethora of reports about successful phishing attacks that direct an unsuspecting user with a scare mail to a page the URL of which has nothing to do at all with the bank they think they went to.
Squatter (Score:5, Interesting)
Hi,
I had to solve such a problem once for a customer of us. A domain expired by accident and fell into the hands of a domainsquatter. The poor ex-owner had already advertisement material printed with his domain name on it. Damages would have ranged at about 10K$.
The problem: If a german company tries to purchase the domain, the prices tend to skyrocket (probably the same for US companies). So we created a fake russian student (not very rich) who wanted to use the domain for his private web site. He had a russian email address, had a small home page with his russian ISP etc. This way with a little negotiation, we managed to purchase the domain at a very reasonable price.
You have to be careful to become the owner of the domain. At first they tried to "lease" the domain to us by just setting the records. But it was completely in accordance with our virtual pesonality to display some paranoia and insist on a complete domain transfer.
Sincerely yours, Martin
I ended up filing a case (Score:3, Informative)
It doesn't matter if it's bad faith or not, ICANN wants the domain to have a useful purpose. That's why people put the "search engines" up. However, the likelyhood of them showing up to defend their useful purpose is slim to none. The problem you have is that in order to file with ICANN for ownership of a domain, you need about $3000.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=icann+domain+dispute&l=1 [lmgtfy.com]
Last time I had to do it, it took about a month. This was last year. We filled out the paperwork, then our "dispute agency" (ICANN itself delegates to an agency) contacted us for MORE paperwork, then the other guy didn't reply because he had used an "anonymous registrar" so we won by default.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It doesn't cost $3000. It happened to a series of domains a company I worked for owned.. a squatter registered a bunch of similar sounding domains and started trying to get us to pay him money. Unluckily for him our CEO was an ex lawyer... ICANN awarded us every domain without question in about 3 weeks and as far as I know it didn't cost us a penny (in fact we started legal action against the squatter at the same time and it cost him a hell of a lot instead).
Suggestions (Score:3, Interesting)
First, decide on a price you are willing to pay and then vow not to go any higher. Don't look at the asking price, just decide what it's worth to you. Offer the squatter half that and if he haggles with you, be tough and then walk away if he wants higher than your top price. In fact, stop at about 3/4 of your top price then walk away for a few weeks. See if he calls you.
If you can't get it for the price you want, start looking into other variations on the domain. A domain is only as 'valuable' as the marketing you put behind it. So the domain itself won't make or break your business. You'd be better off investing that money into a good marketing campaign or branding/logo designer etc.
As for the actual transaction- don't buy it unless he is listing it through a legit registrar's after-market domain auctioning/selling system. Don't take the "send me the cash and I'll unlock it for transfer" line.
Protect yourself and get a lawyer to do the actual transaction.
Abuse (Score:3, Insightful)
Cybersquatting is considered an abusive registration [icann.org], and therefore subject to 'expedited administrative proceedings' with an ICANN representative. Its likely to cost you a fair bit to go through the dispute resolution, but if their site is obviously a 'for-sale' site, then you're pretty much guaranteed to win - para 4, section b [icann.org] refers almost entirely to cybersquatting.
It might be worth going this route if a) the scumbag has registered several domains you want (eg .com, .net) , and b) also wants loads of cash for them. The cost for the NAF panel is $1300 (nice work if you can get it :) )
I do think the dispute-resolution process is pretty poor for the most obvious forms of abuse, and should be opened up to more, quicker and cheaper forms of arbitration, with anything other than the most obvious cases requiring a higher panel,but ICANN is run as an international body, so I don't expect anything to happen, ever.
Don't Encourage Them (Score:3, Insightful)
Offering these scumbags money just teaches them that they're on the right track. If you've got money to burn, why not throw a little at some of the many groups that are trying to outlaw this practice?
Barter (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:url? (Score:5, Insightful)
Telling the actual URL in question would be a bad idea as it may cause the current holder to up their asking price since it was linked on slashdot.
Re:url? (Score:5, Informative)
Sesame Street's gonna come and kick your ass (Score:4, Funny)
This, please God, this.
sentence
Re:url? (Score:5, Insightful)
Strange, then, that speculating on land is considered reasonable.
especially since there's a lot more domain-name space than useful land.
Re:url? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike the above, squatters also clog up my search results, and pretend to be some sort of resource in their own right, feigning relevance to whatever search I did. That's more difficult to make an analogy, but I'll try...
It's like buying thousands of houses that you guess a few might be undervalued, putting a sign outside that says "Bed & Breakfast" or "Ye Olde Antique Shop", and when people come in looking for something entirely different, you either refer them to someone down the block who paid you for it, or you try to sell them the house.
It is generally quite dishonest.
Now, there may indeed be some cybersquatter rule that I can use to hurt them, but either way, I absolutely refuse to support their business model. If it's some kid who bought a personal domain and isn't doing much with it, fine -- but if it's yet another "What you need, when you need it" bullshit site, they can rot.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)