Getting Company Owners To Follow Their Own Rules? 387
techmage writes "Recently we had an issue at our small company that resulted in the loss of a lot of important data. To prevent it from happening again, we created a company-wide policy that all computers would return to IT to have their contents backed up, and the computers would be formatted and reloaded for the next user. Consistently the owners of the company break this and other policies we set up to prevent data loss, theft, etc. How do I get through to the bosses that when they break with the policies, they are potentially shooting the company in the foot?"
Explain what can happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Explain the risks, if they choose to ignore it document that they have not returned the laptop to be backed up so that they can't try and blame you if it goes wrong and data loss does occur.
Have no fear, I have an asshole cousin who used to own a company. Anytime something went wrong he made sure to blame somebody else.
So it doesn't matter what you document, or how hard you try convince them that you're trying to protect their company; if something goes wrong, you're probably fucked. But keep those notes as due diligence, in case they really try to screw you for their fuckups. And keep your resume up to date.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:4, Insightful)
If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.
Wanna bet?
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, dear, yes. The "unemployment ballet" is nasty. A professional bureaucrat that wants to fire you will record every misstep, collect them into a file, give you a "warning" and a "recovery plan", then do everything bureaucratically possible to poison your work. Simple shock and disbelief at how ridiculous the recorded "violations" are will not save you. You need a thick folder with documented mis-steps, preferably by the bureaucrat trying to fire you, with it all documented. Sign _nothing_ that admits wrong-doing if you can avoid it: make sure that you have counterletters recorded, and get copies of everything.
And start looking for new work if this is going on. I've had this happen, where a senior supervisor blamed the engineers for his laptop problems when he absolutely refused to swap it or surrender it for recovery, always had his disk overflowing, refused to patch, etc. He just wanted us to "fix it!" when it broke.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.
Sure they can... even if one is perfect, I am sure there are citable reasons one would have trouble defending against in an unemployment benefits battle. And if the person is not perfect, well, then, there's grounds for termination without unemployment. "Gee, that's the third time you were late... I dont care that it was only 37 seconds, or only the 3rd time in 10 years... the employee rules state that on the 3rd time, we can terminate you. This has nothing to do with that whole lost data fiasco that you documented was my fault."
Seen it happen. Fortunately never to me... though, I also never filed for unemployment...
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Interesting)
Generally "misconduct" involves an act of willful disregard of the employer's interests or a deliberate violation of the employer's rules or an intentional and substantial disregard of the employee's duty to the employer.
If you subpoena the employers timekeeping records and they only show you being late 3 times in 10 years then their appeal of your benefits will get denied.
Very few employers win unemployment appeals (Score:5, Informative)
I fully agree. Employers don't generally win unemployment compensation hearings, even when they are correct. In many cases, the employer has a policy to appeal ANY unemployment claim, just to set up a few additional hoops for the employee to jump through. Most of the time, the employers don't even show up for the hearing. As a result, the state labor department deals with a LOT of junk appeals. Even when the employer shows up, the burden of proof is upon THEM and most of the time, they aren't up to the task.
I know of a guy who was thrown out during some kind of bizarre purge. The company had a change in management and this guy was clearly not part of the plan. So the company tried to cobble together some sort of justification. However, their schedule for firing him did not allow for collecting enough excuses. The purge worked in such a way that the guy's boss had already been let go, so actual facts of the employee's performance were in short supply. What little they had was wrong.
So of course, the employer appeals the unemployment claim. The hearing is held and the employer is absent. After losing by default, THEN the employer appeals to re-open the case. The employee's witnesses are subpoenaed and the day of the second hearing arrives. By this time, the employer has engaged some kind of unemployment compensation management firm to try and win the case. Upon seeing the employee's counter claim and witness list, the consultant tells the judge, "Upon review, this case does not rise to the standard necessary to establish termination for cause. We withdraw our appeal."
Considering how routine these shenanigans are, is it any wonder the employers usually lose?
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure about elsewhere, but in the UK, you'd have good grounds for an employment tribunal. Specifically you'd be looking for an unfair dismissal (if sacked) or constructive dismissal (if you were forced to quite) case. For what it's worth, most companies don't even seem to bother fighting these now if they are in fact justified, purely because they have come to accept that you can't treat employees like that. They will most likely just settle with you if you find yourself in this situation.
Companies can't just sack people, and even making up excuses doesn't work for them if the employee chooses to fight it. They have to be able to justify why you were sacked, whilst you're right that being late 3 times may be justification, it is not justification if others have also been late 3 times and yet only you have been sacked. If you had been late 3 times, constantly under-performend and so forth then they could again justify this, but they would need to prove you've under-performed, this might include bringing up past appraisals and so forth, but this is why it's a good idea to make sure you agree with your appraisal outcomes.
The key is that the company has to be able to show that you were worse than other employees, and that if you were worse, it's not because you'd been treated differently and set up to fail.
I believe the US has slightly less employee protections than this, but this is certainly the case in Europe. Whilst someone whose hated by the whole company can be sacked, employees here have a lot of protection against bad bosses who would sack them out of sheer malice or incompetence. If anyone is wondering why we have such laws, it's because we don't want unemployment stats and unemployment benefit costs raised unnecessarily by having people perfectly able and competent enough to do the job sacked unfairly.
Regardless though, if you are in such a situation, and taking the matter to a higher level of management if one exists doesn't solve it, then you're better off going elsewhere anyway, because although they may not be able to get rid of you, they can at least kill off your career by preventing you getting promotions and payrises although even that's subject to some protections if everyone else gets a rise, or the interviews for promotion were carried out in a provably unfair manner for example.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:4, Informative)
I believe the US has slightly less employee protections than this
Interesting definition of that word. In the US it depends on which state and whether or not unions are involved. If you live in a "work at will" state and are not unionized, you can lose your job for any reason at all, including "we just don't want to pay you any more". This is justified by the claim that you are free to leave whenever you'd like as well.
Even when I was a contract worker, the company reserved the right to terminate the contract with 1 week paid notice. My options were limited to take it (with no modifications to the contract) or leave it (we have other candidates who want the job).
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I didn't realise the US job market was quite that "flexible".
I should add that contract workers here have less rights too, I was referring to the rights of permanent staff. Here contractors can indeed have their contract terminated at the drop of a hat also.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Funny)
I didn't realise the US job market was quite that "flexible".
That's why we have such a strong economy - we care more about the people that make up the businesses than the business itself.
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Two points:
1) Whether the US cares more about the people depends on whether the people are happy with the ability to walk out easier with much lower job security. Being able to sack at any time without question seems to be a much more business oriented law than a people oriented law.
2) As mentioned in my original post, Europe has much better employee protection in that most of it includes the protections I mentioned, and yet has a much stronger economy than the US.
Or were you being sarcastic?
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It's not so much about being able to fire or quit on the spot, it's about giving both the employer and the employee time to make alternative arrangements.
It means that the company has a month or whatever your leave period is to find a replacement so that they're not inconvenienced and hence don't have their business dealings interrupted and it's about ensuring the employee has time to find another job, so that they're not a drain on the state either because they end up claiming unemployment benefits, or bec
Re:Works both ways (Score:4, Interesting)
On the face of it, it seems a reasonable argument and in fact IS the argument used by the 43 states that don't offer any kind of employee protection whatsoever. However, if you activate your critical thinking skills, you'll see that reciprocity (which is what you're trying to define) doesn't exist. If, for example, I decided to just not show up to work anymore my company will go on just fine without me even though I do work in a fairly critical position. It might mean other members of my team will have to work a bit harder for a few weeks to fill the void, but there will be no overwhelming financial impact to the company whatsoever.
On the other hand, if my company decides to fire me because I wore white after Labor Day (a stupid reason, yes, but a legal one nonetheless in all but 7 states), then I am subject to severe financial disruption, not to mention the loss of medical benefits for myself and family. In all but a few states, being fired makes you ineligible for unemployment (you need to be laid off with the potential for recall to be eligible), so you're on your own regardless of there being a valid reason or not. Beyond that, whenever you interview going forward, you have to explain why you were terminated BUT you're not allowed to speak negatively of a former employer in an interview...so keep it positive! Even if you do, the myth of "they're not allowed to say anything negative about you in a reference" is a meme that should've died a long time ago. They can say whatever they want when giving a reference, legally it just has to be true. However, as you're an unemployed schlub with no income...good luck finding a lawyer who will take your case on a contingency if they lie.
We can try and spin it any way we like, the fact is the deck is stacked 100% against you. Is it likely you'll be fired for wearing white after Labor Day? Is it likely, however, that you'll be fired for another equally stupid reason? In this economy, anything's possible.
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Mod as +1, sad - unable to tell if this is sarcasm or not!
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:5, Insightful)
suing to get your job back
I've never understood that concept. If your employer fired you, why would you want to continue to work for them? I know you might need the money or something, but surely the fact that they fired you would create a less than ideal workplace environment, if not an outright hostile environment? Especially if "get your job back" involves working for the same manager...
I am speaking from experience here, to a degree. My manager fired me (literally because I insisted I be allowed to clean up code incidental to my bugfixes), but his boss overrode the firing and gave me control of IT instead. It was not exactly pleasant having to continue to interact with the former manager - and even though the manager later admitted to his boss that he was wrong to have fired me, he refused to admit it to me, and of course that meant he was unwilling to do anything to improve the work environment as it related to the interaction between our jobs.
What I'm getting at is that if I ever find myself in a similar situation again, I do not believe I would attempt to force the company to continue employing me, because I do not believe I could tolerate the resulting poor work environment.
Does anyone have any insight on this? Anyone ever been through this before? How did it work out?
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If nothing else it can help remove a black mark from your resume. Depending on the job, you might change positions or locations. Sometimes the same action will even cause the bad person to be fired, if the stars are truly right.
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Myself, I wouldn't want to work where I wasn't wanted. Eventually they'll find a way to get rid of you.
I've seen it go poorly with union jobs. It wasn't me directly, it was through observation. A grocery store chain was on strike. Those who were very visible and had decent jobs did go back to work after the strike was over. They didn't get their good jobs back. For example, a full time manager became a part time bagger. Someone in the office ended up on a loading dock.
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:4, Interesting)
There's really nothing to keep an employer from being vindictive. Sure, go back to court and say They aren't playing nice with me." If a company really felt they had to keep you, they may just do something like open a site in the Antarctic, with just one machine and one employee, and you would be in charge of the site.
It's not like that [answers.com] ever happens though.
Hey, it'd be a high seniority position. Site manager is much more important that code monkey, right? :) Of course, it's a long walk home after they notify you that they've decided to terminate services there. "Promotions" aren't always what they seem.
I was reading about someone who did win the case against their employer. They were given a very nice office, a big title, and a secretary. They had absolutely no responsibilities, and no work to do. He was being paid to warm his chair from 9am to 5pm. He did that for a decade, and admitted that he was bored out of his skull. They didn't like him working there, but didn't want to end up in court again if they tried to terminate him again. Because the level of distrust was there, they couldn't assign him any work.
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I tried to mod you insightful, then the mouse wheel slipped and i accidentally clicked 'redundant' instead. sorry.
CYA.
Cover your ass.
Just about every industry is like a big pot of boiling soup: the crud rises to the top. "I'm wrong, your fired"
Document everything, and back it up. make sure you talk to several different managers about the issue. hopefully, at least one will listen/do something. If not, at least when a problem does come up, they can't say they weren't warned.
Hey look...now I'm the redund
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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And for that exact reason, sometimes IT has to enforce things that even bosses don't like.
I read a lot of "the owner is the boss" replies, which is technically correct. But if something goes wrong, your ass 's gonna get in trouble. Therefore, if the boss doesn't cooperate, sometimes you have to 'help' him/her a little.
1) You could fix it under water by syncing over their
Re:Explain what can happen (Score:4, Interesting)
Paper trail. It's the most important thing to remember. Tape recordings are fine and dandy, if you don't mind spooling through hours of tape to try to find one conversation, which may or may not be legal where you are. Sometimes it takes one person being aware that a recording is being made. Sometimes it requires both parties.
If you document every request and response, even if it's just email, then you have a record of what's been happening. Don't say anything, because it's left to the witnesses to testify to what they heard. Even if you have a tape recording saying one thing, they could simply say "But I told him something contrary in a later conversation."
Be consistent with your paper trail too. Ask for every request to be made via email, or after a conversation ask, "can you please send that to me in an email?" Besides saving you in future proceedings, it will also help you document other things that happened. "Do you remember when we made this change?" "Sure, it's in my email. December 4th 2001, you requested it, and December 5th 2001 I finished it.
Keep your paper trail off site somewhere, that you have exclusive access to, like your home computer.
It may be advantageous to have a policy for retention. If you get called into court years later regarding an incident, no matter how innocent it seemed at the time, you may simply be lacking the trail. "No, I only retain those documents for 2 years. I have no records related to your case." Be honest though. If you say you don't have it, but your equipment is subpoenaed and it's found, then you're in trouble.
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Also - Since it's a small business, and the people at the top are owners you have to put it in terms that hit home for them.
1) Sir, this is your company. I am trying to ensure this policy is enforced to protect it, and you from data loss and security breaches. It's important to me that this company not only survives, but thrives and that we all do what we can to make sure we do everything right.
2) I'm not trying to do this to be a pain. I want to make sure we properly handle all hardware turnover. This
meh, keep it simple (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:meh, keep it simple (Score:4, Funny)
If that doesn't work, use a reverse analogy, and actually shoot them in the foot.
Pretty much the best way (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean you can't make the owners do anything. They own it, it is theirs to do with as they please. They could close up shop tomorrow for no reason if they wanted. So you can't force them to do as they should. Likewise, nagging them could be a bad career move. So the best thing is a CYA. Have something that says they understand the risks of not following the policy more or less. Then, if shit does break you should be covered. They'll either realize that they made a mistake and be fine, or they'll come looking to blame you and you can pull out the document and say "We made sure to inform you of the risks and you signed off saying you understood them and that it was up to you if you chose not to follow them."
That's the best you can do.
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Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Owner : IT Guy IT Guy, my data is gone! Save me
IT Guy : Well here we have this release I made you sign last month that clearly said that if you lost any data it was your own damn fault.
Owner : He's a post it with the words "you're fired on it". Now take your arrogant self-righteous ass out of my office.
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IT Guy: That's fine. You'll be hearing from my lawyer, and by this time next year I'll own your company.
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:5, Interesting)
The reasonable period is 12 months in the UK, just like the rest of the EU. It's all working time directive related. The Labour government revoked out opt out of the working time directive over a decade ago.
Also if the employer is deemed to be firing people at say 11 months to avoid this rule they will be done. I am not a lawyer but my brother is an employment tribunal judge, and you do pick up lots over the years.
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:4, Insightful)
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Owner : IT Guy IT Guy, my data is gone! Save me
IT Guy : Well here we have this release I made you sign last month that clearly said that if you lost any data it was your own damn fault.
Owner : He's a post it with the words "you're fired on it". Now take your arrogant self-righteous ass out of my office.
You know what? If it goes down that way, leaving is really your only option. The company is clearly too dysfunctional for you to be happy/successful, so why torture yourself? Move on, and call it a learning experience.
Life is too short to work in a job that sucks. Yes, being unemployed sucks too, so better to go on terms of your own choosing. But if your boss is determined to be an asshat there is very little you can do to change that.
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I remember in 2003 I worked for a non-profit where I managed all IT software (but not hardware). I noticed that various employees were storing large files onto the server. Not a big deal, but we only had about 3 months left of harddrive space at the current upload rate.
I informed my boss several times, telling him if we didn't expand memory, everything will crash - including email for all 40 employees.
Well, he didn't act, everything crashed, and apparently they had a several day 'emergency' until they remem
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:5, Informative)
Not only is it true tat you can't make the owners do anything, but it's even very possible that doing the right thing isn't necessarily going to protect you. You could follow very sensible procedures and CYA with all kinds of documentation, and if the owners are petty and childish enough, they might still fire you or at least make your life a living hell.
That said, I think it's important that you find a way to be very very clear with the owners about what you believe the consequences to their actions will be. Do it in writing if possible. Be polite and respectful, but don't be subtle. The more vague you are, the more likely it is that they'll hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't want to hear. Be as clear as possible without incurring their wrath. If you have to, be repetitive and say the same exact thing 5 different ways, but make sure that they understand how their bad actions put the future of your company in jeopardy.
Also understand that they might not like you afterwards. I've known a number of small business owners who were manipulative and petty and they couldn't tolerate anyone pointing out their flaws or telling them they're wrong. If they were willing to let someone else tell them what to do, they would have gotten a job working for someone else instead of running their own business. Even though you're trying to do the right thing, you might be burning bridges. Make sure it's worth it.
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That said, I think it's important that you find a way to be very very clear with the owners about what you believe the consequences to their actions will be. Do it in writing if possible. Be polite and respectful, but don't be subtle. The more vague you are, the more likely it is that they'll hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't want to hear. Be as clear as possible without incurring their wrath. If you have to, be repetitive and say the same exact thing 5 different ways, but make sure that they understand how their bad actions put the future of your company in jeopardy.
Also understand that they might not like you afterwards. I've known a number of small business owners who were manipulative and petty and they couldn't tolerate anyone pointing out their flaws or telling them they're wrong.
So don't tell them they're wrong, tell them they're important. Tell them their work is also important, and therefore it needs to be backed up regularly, protected with the best anti-virus stuff, whatever. Don't make it sound like a chore, make it sound like you're doing it especially for them. Because they and their work is really that important.
How are they going to reply to that? Say that their work is not important? Not likely.
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pretty much the best way (Score:4, Insightful)
They'll either realize that they made a mistake and be fine, or they'll come looking to blame you and you can pull out the document and say "We made sure to inform you of the risks and you signed off saying you understood them and that it was up to you if you chose not to follow them."
The only thing you'd get out of such a document is protection from them suing you after they fire you! I'd suggest this:
1) Write an email to them, indicating your concerns about the safety of the data, and how they need to adhere to the protocol in order to protect themselves. Be very nice about it, and indicate that you are confused as to how you should proceed after meeting X...
2) They'll reply with something or other. Print both emails off, WITH FULL HEADERS included. File those someplace offsite, perhaps at home.
Why would you need everything signed in triplicate? That's just intimidating, and likely to engender mistrust. These are your bosses! They're nice enough to hire you, provide you with a living wage, and ask you to solve their problems - be nice enough to respect their position and wishes. And even if they are vindictive, you just need enough to show good faith effort on your part.
In my experience with things legal, the law isn't interested in the fine grains of the contract, they're interested in what you actually agreed to. At least in California, verbal contracts are OK so long as they are substantiated by actions or supporting evidence, and the courts have already ruled that email is sufficient evidence of an agreement/contract, so anything more is just a formality. But if you get all weird on them, it's a good possibility you'll just lose your job.
Of course, if you are really worried, IANAL, go hire a lawyer, blah blah. But IMHO, if you do, you'll probably just end up fired.
Not necessiarly (Score:4, Informative)
I mean ya, if the owners are major assholes they could fire you anyhow, however such a thing can be useful. First, it may make them change their behaviour and if it doesn't it can help protect you. Reason is they are then presented with evidence that they were informed and indicated that fact. If not, it is easy for ego to interfere with memory and them to say "You never told me this would be a problem!" However with a document they are more likely to say "Ya, I screwed up, now what do we do to make sure this isn't a problem in the future?"
In any company, there is no 100% protection from being fired no matter what. However having good documentation can go a long way. People do not have perfect memories and often we remember things the way we wish they had been, not how they really were. Documentation can help prevent that.
Also you don't present it as a "This is just for you because you are assholes" document. Rather, it is a policy exception document. If someone wants to not need to back up their data, you have them sign a doc that says they know the risks, and perhaps have it countersigned and ok'd by a boss. In the case of the bosses, they just sign it themselves.
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Exactly. Sounds more like you should me sending resumes then trying to convince the bosses of something they do not care about. Typically, something bad has to happen until everyone is on board. And it has to affect the bottom line.
I would approach with a very automated backup system. Something that requires no interaction on their part, that is invisible to them. Like a CrashPlan or Data Deposit Box account. Set it to backup all their main folders and some other places where files might land by accid
Re:meh, keep it simple (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:meh, keep it simple (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd ask anyone who routinely overrides your authority in the data-protection sphere to sign a form indicating something to the effect that they've been informed of these policies and the potential risks and if it all comes crashing down because they don't listen to you, it's not your fault.
If they have the authority to routinely ignore / override your security policies, they don't have to sign the fucking form either.
Re:meh, keep it simple (Score:5, Insightful)
If you honestly work at a business where the boss both ignores your expert opinion and refuses to acknowledge their contempt for business continuity planning, you should probably be looking for employment elsewhere. You're never going anywhere in that business environment, and the business itself is likely never going anywhere positive either. Unemployment sucks (and I've been there), but a dead-end job can be worse (stress in the short-term, and employability in the long term).
Re:sign this (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Thank you for trying to save me money. Your recommendations are welcome as I'm paying you for your expertise and opinions.
2) If you're going to try to have me sign something like that I'm going to have a talk with you about bureaucracy and how we can't afford a BS cover your ass mentality in a small company. You may rest assured that if I don't back up and there's a crash there are two possible results: If I'm a bad manager I'm going to come back at you and no little piece of paper will stop me from firing you (though I'd expect you would receive unemployment as it's not really for cause). If I'm a good manager I'm going to write the check to cover the damages, feel foolish and accept your recommendation going forward.
3) If it's a dumbass relative that thinks they can ignore the rules because they're family working in a family business (and they don't sign the checks) then I expect to see their name (and possibly mine if I'm doing it too) on the report of IT security scofflaws that you periodically (though infrequently) prepare for me.
In a company controlled by a single or few owners it is reasonable to recommend, cajole, suggest or encourage proper owner behavior, but if you dictate it and attempt to threaten (for instance by saying in a confrontational manner 'ok, but I'm not taking responsibility then') you are writing checks that your expertise may not be able to cash. As an owner it's important that my IT works right, but it's absolutely imperative that I don't lose control of the company. Don't make me think that you're trying to take it away from me or lord your technical expertise over me unless you have a VERY secure position.
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I'd ask anyone who routinely overrides your authority in the data-protection sphere to sign a form
And as you flop that document out for them to sign, also ask if you can leave the building under your own power rather than being manhandled out by security.
Its time people in IT get over themselves. They don't run the company and they do not tell management what to do with their own computers.
TFA said "all computers would return to IT to have their contents backed up".
Really? What CEO in his right mind would turn over the contents of his hard drive to geeks with ink stained pockets?
Who signs the checks? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who signs the checks? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't get it... (Score:5, Interesting)
So you're going to take my laptop, back it up, reload it and give it to the next guy? I in turn will get someone else's formatted laptop?
Or are you just trying to say, "we lost a lot of data when someone's laptop failed without proper backup processes in place. So we've decided that everyone needs to regularly connect to the company network and back up their laptop. The owner's of the company never back up their laptop"?
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I think it might be the process for when somebody leaves the company and their computer goes to a different person. I got a machine once with a whole lot of personal photos on it. I told the IT manager about it and he said all machines are supposed to be imaged between owners.
The business may not want to to that (say if they have a temp) because it may cost money per machine.
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I am with you as far as the confusion. You they asking all the laptop users to hand their laptops over at certain intervals to be backed up, reformatted, and reallocated? That sounds like the definition of fail, and if I was in charge I would not put up with it.
Here are my simple tips for discussing backup with people who are generally "too busy" to bother with backups.
Advise them to keep all their data on the server. When they are working in the office, this should be easy. Word, Excel, or whatever sho
You don't (Score:4, Insightful)
Quite simply, you don't. I've worked at large banks that do not follow their own rules. IT cannot drive policy if C level executives do not want to follow the policy. If you can get auditors or examiners to force the policy to be followed, then it can work. Otherwise, IT cannot do anything. They will only be seen as chicken little and IT will lose what little standing they have at the company already.
You don't, So CYA (Score:2)
What the parent said... if they won't follow the policy (and they don't have to). I don't know if the owners are straight shooters or not, so I don't know what happens if the SHTF. Will they pin the blame on IT? It'd sure be nice to have an email or written memo where they had signed off on the policy. It won't save you from getting fired if they're looking for scapegoats, but it might save your reputation while looking for another job.
Don't be a dumb ass (Score:3, Insightful)
They who have the gold make the rule.
Your responsibility is to recommend and record your recommendation, and do your job as you can.
In the end, it is "their" company, not yours. It's the way of capitalism. You don't like that? Change your job.
For what it's worth, I didn't mean any of this in sarcastic/offensive way. I am being sincere.
Flip it around and see how you would see things if you were the owner.
Re:Don't be a dumb ass (Score:4, Interesting)
This whole "flip it around" idiom doesn't work well for me. I am a very unusual person. I know if I was an owner, I wouldn't be an ass, I would not only accept criticism, but would solicit it. I would make sure that if the policy doesn't work for me, then it can't work for anyone, but if it works for others, it better work for me too. In other words, if having my computer backed up is too onerous for me, I would assume it was also too onerous for my employees. On the other hand, if something is not a big imposition and has good benefits, I expect everyone, including myself, to follow it. I would basically eat my own dog food.
Since I am a great person, unlike most business owners, saying "flip it around" just doesn't work for me. I know that if an employee came up to me and criticized me, it wouldn't be a career ending move. But that's just me.
Assign it a cost (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Assign it a cost (Score:5, Funny)
It put Xerox behind and prevented them from releasing the GUI in 1977, delaying the computer industry and the would-be 2008 CAD design of the first practical flying car. Remember that anal stunt the next time you are stuck in traffic.
Re:Assign it a cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, no, you don't understand. I don't want everybody to have a flying car. I just want me to have a flying car.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It turned out just fine. Our "VCS" was a magnetic white board with a grid on it (remember, this was 32 years ago). Every filename had a box. When you checked out a file you put a little colored magnet (we each had our own color) on it. If you wanted a file that was already checked out you put your magnet upside down over the current one and when the person checked it in they would flip yours over, poke their head through the door and say 'foo.h is yours.'
Charles would sometimes want to make a 'quick fix'
Re: (Score:2)
Figure a better way (Score:5, Insightful)
Remote Backup (Score:4, Interesting)
Use the admin account (and shares; $C, $D, etc...) to map their hard drive remotely to a computer in the networking office. Then, use RSYNC (or SyncToy) to mirror the drive remotely. Once the initial backup is complete, daily or weekly jobs will progress quickly.
You really have to find a way to work around the guys who are in charge.
If you want to be a bit more nefarious, start the backup jobs first thing in the morning. When the boss complains his system is slow, do a backup/format/reinstall on his system. Now his system is magically fast again...
Re: (Score:2)
Who do the owners report to? (Score:2)
Just because I own a few shares of Best Buy doesn't mean I get any special treatment in the stores or edge in getting a job with them. If the owners don't follow the policy, they should be fired by the CEO. Of course, this doesn't work if CEO == Owner.
Re: (Score:2)
frankly i'm not sure why this guy cares. if the owners want to do shit that endangers their data then let them unless you think there is a real risk of the business failing because of it. in which case it should be easy to make the case to stop them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, it happens. If there's a minority-share owner and the CEO doesn't like them, they can be fired from their role as employee. Of course, the CEO can be canned if the ousted owner can get a majority of the ownership shares behind them... but there's always been cases of people falling below 50% ownership and being fired by the rest of the ownership.
Re: (Score:2)
They don't care even if you own more than a few shares of Best Buy when you walk in that door. Even if you own $1 million in BB stock, it won't make a difference how they treat you.
You've already failed. (Score:5, Insightful)
You've created a policy and don't have the owner-level execs onboard?
That's failure #1 right there. Good policy making for security purposes isn't "And IT saith THUS!". Operating in this kind of vacuum gets your enforcement NO PLACE. Fast!
You have to involve these people pretty much from the get-go. This way they understand why the policy is in place and have less self-provided incentive to circumvent it.
And yes, as others have said, a small amount of "horror story" can go a long way too. But only DURING the policy creation process. Afterwards, they look at it as simple justification of an arbitrary policy.
Right now you guys haven't got a leg to stand on.
Just remind them (Score:2)
As I understand, the policy is about computers that are reused, and the prior data loss occurred because someone quit, and nobody bothered to preserve the data on his computer until it was too late.
If the owners of the company neglect this rule as they change their own computers, not much you can do or need to do. Just send them a few reminders, and if you hear nothing back, desist. It's their company after all.
The owners may want to do that if the computers were used for storing some confidential infor
Re:Just remind them (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a very good point, it's quite likely that the owners know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. You won't get far in business by blindly trusting everyone who works for you.
You don't (Score:2)
You need to give up caring. Seriously, if they, as the owner(s), want to be idiots... well, so be it. Realize that (as with many business owners) they aren't really all that sharp, don't commit to this company any further than the short term, and keep your resume up to date for the time when they finally screw up really bad.
I've seen it all at this point. The small business owners that are smart, honest, and have reasonable common sense are few and far between. Your complaints don't surprise me at all;
Ask why. (Score:2)
Ask why they're not following the policies. If the policies are onerous (they usually are) then you're wasting your breath asking that they be followed. Instead, rearchitect the policies so that you maximize their effectivenes -short of- getting in the way of the work.
Policies have to be convenient for the users (Score:2)
Your network policies have to be convenient for the users (including the business owners). If the perceive something as being so inconvenient that they're tempted to circumvent it, you as the IT department are obligated to come up with something more convenient.
If the problem isn't one of convenience (but sneaking around and trying to actively evade backups), then you've got bigger problems.
Reassess your place in the universe, techmage. (Score:4, Insightful)
What makes you think the owner's information should be available to you in the IT department?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because we already have access to that data. If you don't trust US with that data, then you have bigger issues.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If there's a trust issue between the boss and his employees, someone should be looking for a new job, or at least assessing their loyalties.
I hate arrogant admins. (Score:2)
Which brings up a
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. If they won't come to you, go to them and do your job at their convenience, not according to some policy set by a subordinate.
And here is a bonus -- you will create the impression of being a useful, dedicated employee rather than that of a peevish dweeb who doesn't know his place in the pecking order.
Re: (Score:2)
You're right, but IT still needs to cover their own asses. That's where the "control freak" attitude stems from.
IT knows what kinds of things are going to cause problems, and they want to prevent them. If management doesn't want to do those things, that's fine, but management then needs to sign off on it. They need to KNOW that IT is not going to take responsibility when the shit hits the fan. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't blame IT, and likely fire some of the IT team. Someone has to take the fall
How unprofessional (Score:3, Insightful)
So you are hired to perform a professional service, and your brilliant sugestion is not to do the work properly but to follow the money?
What kind of "professional" are you? Not one I would want on a sensitive environment, since obviously you would not have the presence of mind to stick to security procedures.
There is certainly a problem if you don't bring on board of your suggestions the owners of your place of employment, but that is a problem of presentation. Part of the skill set of a Systems Administrat
Loose bits sink ships. (Score:2)
I once worked for a company that had a direct competitor next door and didn't realize they next to each other and were sharing the same lunch room worker, who just happened to be the twin sister of the pricing manager of the shop I worked for. When we in the IT room figured out what was happening... we gave incorrect information to the women and drove our competitors into bankruptcy. For her involvement in the mess, that pricing manager was demoted. And because I had developed the pricing system to become e
Well (Score:2)
Use Linux
Emacs, that always works
Buy a Mac
Switch to Windows 7
Switch back to Window XP
Just quit and find another job
Keep a documentation trail to CYA
Smile and nod, smile and nod
You're doing it wrong anyway
Laptops? Nobody needs a laptop!
Backups? Nobody needs a backup!
Why is the CEO such a jerk? All CEOs are jerks
I worked at a company once with this exact same problem and here what I did: Nothing
I worked at a company once with this exact same problem and here what I did: Showed the CEO a better way
I worked at
sociopaths (Score:4, Insightful)
You will never train users, forget that and die. (Score:2)
Only if you find a way that does not involve requiring the user to do anything. "Auto something thingy", hey you're the IT guy figure it out.
Sell your idea (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Identify the group dynamic (is there a 'holdout', and 'alpha geek')?
2. Identify the objections to your proposed solution.
3. Ask them what their ideal solution(s) would be for this problem.
4. Customize and provide a solution to them.
Don't
* rely on the owners having a conversation amongst themselves. If you want to meet with
Be Reasonable (Score:2)
Here's some perspective. Owners are people too and their personality and circumstances vary. I've been in both roles. Be respectful of their time. Owners/entrepreneurs/execs are used to optimizing their own time and taking calculated risks. Find out why they don't follow the rules and don't get irritated at the answer.
I've broken rules and procedures (filling out time cards, backups, etc) when the "opportunity cost" was too high and it was my prerogative to make that decision. (I could complete my time
You've got things very backwards (Score:2)
Owners make policies not to avoid problems, but to avoid responsibility. They don't want employees to create risk -- because those employees are not able to be held accountable for those actions unless there is a policy. But owners get to dodge the policy and assume the risk -- because they are able to be held accountable, no matter what.
Rules don't apply to people who can change the rules at any time.
Do what I say, not... (Score:2)
... what I do. Does that sound familiar? That's the way corporate executives think. They make the rules for OTHER people to follow, but their own obligation to follow them is very, very conditional.
Incidentally, we have the same problem in government. Same mindset, different venue.
What nobody is saying here is... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's all about letting it go, CYA, documentation, etc.
Here's an idea: sit down with the boss and ask him what his objections are to the policy. Perhaps, rather than dictating something that he finds inconvenient, invasive, or just doesn't like, you should engage him in the solution process. Chances are, if he has a hand in designing the solution, he'll participate in it.
I can think of all kinds of potential problems with your system. I'll pretend to channel your boss for a minute. Maybe I don't want to have everything on my computer backed up. (Perhaps he has a mistress, offshore accounts, cooking the books, records of skimming, concealing things from his wife's divorce attorney) Maybe I don't want to swap my computer that I love with one that you are pulling out of the pool. (I don't want the one that Scroggins has been using, that dude picks his nose, and then goes right on typing. And he types a lot.) Maybe I don't want to drop my computer off once a week for you guys to back it up. (I'm the fucking boss, why should I follow your schedule, punk)
So, if my channeling is correct, you give him a script that only backs up essential folders, and some thumb drives. And then you come collect his backed-up thumb drive once a week, leave a fresh one, and archive the backup onto the server somewhere, where it gets backed up for real.
Talk the Talk (Score:3, Insightful)
"How do I get through to the bosses..."
Talk boss language to them.
Wait until one costs the company something through a computer failure and failure to follow the policy.
Fix the problem and present the machine back to them with a bill for the repair. Make sure to boost the price to cover any ancillaries such as your training, their training, their retraining, lost time to the company due to their down time, and any similar costs you can dream up. Keep copies.
Request a general meeting with the bossships. Present the data from the above repair, anonymized to protect the guilty. Compare the cost presented with the cost of following policy. Make sure to point out that they too stand to lose financially (ie not make even more money) if they or others cost the company money. Suggest that in order to protect the company they adopt the policy that such unnecessary costs be charged to the individual in the future.
For theft, adjust scenario as necessary as well as costs. For concominant data theft, do the same, as well as figure in cost to the company.
Or put together a 'what if' report based on a previous loss and present that at such a meeting, rather than wait until it actually happens. Feel free to pretend it did at the start of your presentation (with knowledge of at least one boss). Done this way you could make it look like the company was sunk and scare the bejeezus out of them.
I've worked a couple places like this (Score:3, Insightful)
My advice: Find a new job.
It's done wonders for my stress levels.
The Dilbert Ethics Challenge (Score:4, Informative)
So I was working at a large defense company, and they had been dinged by the gov't for high-level management fraud. So part of the penalty was all employees that weren't managers had to take a mandatory Ethics class, run by... the managers.
Add in that the class included a Dilbert Ethics Game-- an actual, licensed Dilbert[TM] board game with little Dilbert characters and cartoons in it, where you had to move around and then answer ethics questions.
Oh, and it turns out you could win the game without correctly answering the questions, as my team figured out victory was based on position on the board, not score. And the only team that could have beat us took the high road, and when faced with one ethic question said "We know you want to hear answer A, but really, we would do answer B, as would any reasonable person."
I'm still not sure what lessons we learned.
You tell them then let it go (Score:3, Insightful)