Ask Slashdot: Modern Web Development Applied Science Associates Degree? 246
First time accepted submitter campingman777 writes "I am being asked by students to develop an associates of applied science in modern web development at my community college. I proposed the curriculum to some other web forums and they were absolutely against it. Their argument was that students would not learn enough higher math, algorithms, and data structures to be viable employees when their industry changes every five years. As part of our mission is to turn out employees immediately ready for the work force, is teaching knowledge-based careers as a vocation appropriate?"
I'm confused (Score:3)
What would someone with an applied science in modern web development do?
Would they work on the algorithms for applied science in a server side language like php?
Would they work in python/c++/haskell or something like fortran and hook into php?
I'd like to help, but I need some further information.
Note: I looked up this degree on google and the last result on the first page was this submission.
Re:I'm confused (Score:5, Interesting)
SEMESTER 1
English I
Intro to computers (or waived) (CIS 100)
Programming tools (Github, IDEs, StackExchange, JIRA)
Intro to Programming Logic (CIS 104)
SEMESTER 2
Algebra I
English II (tech writing)
Project Management (software)
Web Development I (HTML & CSS)
SEMSTER 3
Government
Interpersonal Communication
Databases I (re-visit & modify current offering)
Web Development II (Javascript & jQuery)
SEMESTER 4
Cultural Anthropology
Introduction to Unix (CIS 140)
Web Development III (node.js, MVC frameworks, e-commerce)
Capstone Project
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The problem I see with that is that you don't have enough tech.
You have 5 courses that I would consider "electives". English I and English II being examples of such.
You have 5 "intro" courses.
Which leaves 3 stages of web development and 1 stage of database ... whatever. You have more electives than core.
Which leaves a basic math class and a project class. Dump the math class. If they don't have it already they can make it up outside of that program. Add another database class.
Also dump the "programming tool
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A class on Algebra? Again, make it a prerequisite to the program. Use the slot to add another database program.
They won't be much use outside of a programming class. So don't spend time on them by themselves. Teach the IDE and github or whatever within the class itself.
The idea being t
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You would give up the limited time for teaching needed information in the programming class to teach the tools. That is a mistake. Your own stated goal would suffer because they would lose depth of knowledge in the programming classes.
Knowing how to set up a web server is not important. Almost all the web programmers I have worked with couldn't set up a server and never needed to because there is someone like me whose job is doing that.
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If the tools take that much teaching then you've chosen the wrong tools. They should be 15 minutes at the most (with a handout on how to install them).
At which point you're getting into the "magic
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English I and II are almost certainly required by any accredited school. Most accredited schools also have a humanities requirement, so Government and Anthropology are not unreasonable.
I would consider Algebra I a remedial course, so I agreed, replace it.
I also agree the programming tools class can be covered in other classes, including Project Management (Software).
Move Intro to Unix to the first semester. Or maybe second, if Intro to Computers is needed. This will give them a foundation for the suggested
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You have 5 courses that I would consider "electives". English I and English II being examples of such.
Far too many comp sci grads think basic language skills is an elective. It's not.
Also dump the "programming tools" class. They can pick that up in their programming classes.
Meaning they will learn the bare minimums to get their programming assignments done. No, these are worthy of their own classes.
Add a class on basic web server administration. Install Apache and add modules and read logs. Install IIS and
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And to add to that... a course on security implementation / threat mitigation / etc.
review XSS, cookie attacks, login systems, etc...
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Depends. 5 5 unit classes would be 25 credits/semester. That's a bear. 5x3 is average.
Server side language (Score:2)
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I agree that Node.js is worth spending significant time on given that it's more than likely going to see greater and greater use, but I guess I'm not sure I'd focus on that at the expense of all the others. Even in two years, a lot of companies will be using something else.
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I realize that 2 years doesn't give you the same amount o
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The popularity is not equal to quality as you said. The problem with your expression is that you give no information about why it is crap but rather attack the application itself. "research where to store the most important part of their application" is a vague information for those who are not familiar with what you are talking about. Your post looks too much like mud-slinger post from a politician - "it is bad" and that's the only thing you need to know. If you really want people to stop using it, be mor
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Or they might learn to build the next Hadoop/Cassandra/etc.
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Ok, when I went to CC I only got an AA. Looking at it now though it makes sense. Just like people can get a bachelors of science in computer engineering. This was my mistake.
I guess the course design then would be tailored around the kind of worker you want to output. Do you want to output a JS front end type guy, or a back end software design and architecture person?
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Whatever they do, make them take at least two semesters of non remedial English (assuming you are in the US).
Please.
Trade school (Score:2)
There's nothing wrong with running a trade school. But "associate of applied science in modern web development" is a bit much. Still, you can now get an "associate degree" in heating, ventilating, and air conditioning. [vistacollege.edu] No classes in thermodynamics, but training in useful skills including brazing, soldering, and plumbing.
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Of course the US and UK systems aren't exactly parallel, but it seems an Associate is on a par with a British HND. You can get those in all manner of things, mostly practical/vocational. One of my schoolmates did Hotel Management & Catering, another did Surveying & I knew a handful of people at University who were allowed to join straight into the second year by having them.
Teach the fundamentals (Score:5, Insightful)
The fundamentals never change. With a solid base, there is nothing a programmer can't do.
An AA program focused on what will get them hired today is exactly what will not get them hired tomorrow.
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The fundamentals never change. With a solid base, there is nothing a programmer can't do.
An AA program focused on what will get them hired today is exactly what will not get them hired tomorrow.
That is true. And so many of us are thankful we learned the fundamentals and principles because we have had really gainfull and fulfilling careers because of it. But not everyone is like us.
There are a lot of people who don't want to / cannot learn the fundamentals. But since they have been told the only path towards the middle class is to go to a 4 year school they will enroll and either drop out, flunk out, change majors, or graduate being barely competent in what they studied. And they will most lik
Re:Teach the fundamentals (Score:4, Interesting)
Precisely. When I was at UCSC, the students were agitating for a course in ... [wait for it] ... VAX Assembler.
The department (quite rightly) ignored our plea.
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Precisely. When I was at UCSC, the students were agitating for a course in ... [wait for it] ... VAX Assembler.
The department (quite rightly) ignored our plea.
lol the wisdom of history! I think you have now earned the right to include "get off my lawn kids" in your slashdot sig without losing karma.
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You would never have been able to get a job at the Dyson factory with that on your CV.
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The fundamentals of modern web development would be things like configuration management (including source control and deployment strategies), load testing, separation of content from presentation, accessibility, and so on. If you have a good understanding of these, you will remain relevant in the web development workforce long after we've moved away from HTML and JavaScript.
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I agree, but this doesn't mean they need a full bachelors degree. I know you didn't say that specifically, but it kind of sounds like you are implying it. A class for each of the following topics would create a very employable web developer IMHO:
Intro to programming - teaching the very basics in a language like Python
Data structures and algorithms - one class can give a good enough to give an intro to data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
Intro to web development - teach HTML, CSS, and Javascript
Advanced
Yes (Score:5, Informative)
I work in a company writing online billing software. We use Perl and Ruby. We don't need people who know quicksort vs. bubble sort - we need people who understand browsers, and AJAX calls, and JSON, and business logic. I never touch anything more complicated in math than basic algebra.
Javascript, CSS, and something other than PHP are what you need to know, with a leavening of SQL and XML. Screw all that CompSci crap - we don't use it in 99.9% of our code.
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It's not whether you use it in your code.
CompSci teaches you the fundamentals that AJAX and JSON and such are built upon. That way you know what the alternatives are and what their strengths/weaknesses are.
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I never touch anything more complicated in math than basic algebra.
So you never program in an OO or functional language or use a database?
Associates (Score:3)
A Bachelors of Arts in anything scientific generally implies that you're not going to get enough exposure to anything you'll actually be doing, much less an associates. So sure, if you want to develop a program that teaches things they could pick up for $20 out of a book and make your college thousands, then 'Associates of Applied Science' sounds perfect.
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A BA in a science means one of two things.
1. You went to a school that offered a BA in science subjects as a certificate of attendance for those that spent 4 years studying a science but never got any of the 'science' or 'math' parts.
2. You went to a school where the humanities control things. They don't like the _fact_ that BAs are second rate to BSs. So in the places run by the basket weaving departments, they just give 'bachelors' degrees or sometimes BAs in all subjects.
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A Bachelors of Arts in anything scientific generally implies that you're not going to get enough exposure to anything you'll actually be doing,...
Or else that you went to Oxford University (for example) which doesn't award a Bachelor of Science degree:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... [wikipedia.org]
(And Oxford still managed to produce 5 physics and 11 chemistry Nobel prize winners.)
or someone like me... (Score:2)
Who got the Associates, learned 90% of use in his elective C++ during his first semester. And everything else, including the first job I landed, came from Sam's Teach Yourself HTML in 24 Hours.
Product of communite college reporting in (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'd mod you up, went to CC transferred and got my BS in Math and minor in CS. CC was also humbling, generally a learning experience all around.
Why Not? (Score:4, Interesting)
To me the question is who is better off: someone who half-assed their way through a CompE degree, got out with $50,000 in debt and is still barely employable as a entry level programmer? Or someone who skipped all the "fluff" and got a 2 year practical programming degree for a fraction of the cost, and is still barely employable as an entry level programmer? I'm arguing it is the guy with less debt.
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Indeed.
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That would be my concern with this vocational degree. Would you know enough to be productive? For those types of jobs, yes. But would you win one of the limited number of positions available? Less likely.
This is the basic conundrum driving much of the college debt crisis - being qualified for a job doesn't mean you will get one. So i
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Even half assing you way through a CompE degree is tough.
Almost all that attempt it will funk out and end up in CS. Especially if you skip the 'Fluff' you will never get to the specialized stuff in an engineering program. The first two years of CompE are almost all 'fluff' as you define it.
What do you mean by web devlopment? (Score:2)
#1 Do you mean planning and implementing a sever base? From customer requirements, backup provisioning, security and obselecense planning, servicing and reliability infractructure ....
#2 Do you mean using a MS based GUI to stuff a toolkit based web site onto a cloud service server?
There are several worlds of difference between #1 and #2.
vocational training is now life long (Score:2)
Historical to modern (Score:2)
You will want a lot of backed-off stuff to teach historical-to-modern flow.
Historically, CGI and SQL were used. Some files on disk stuff, executable programs, etc. Executable programs gave way to scripts like Perl and PHP.
In modern times, raw SQL has been transformed into stuff like Python SQLAlchemy. CGI, being too slow--it takes longer to load/unload the interpreter (or even a C executable) than it does to execute the work--has given way to FastCGI, and then WSGI. Straight markup and scripting ha
A better degree would be... (Score:2)
.
Just trying to figure out which version of which browser supports what subset of CSS is one of the greatest puzzles facing mankind.....
Sure (Score:5, Insightful)
This assumes 'web development' refers to web-based applications, not just informational webpages.
This is likely to be an unpopular opinion to many, but I don't see the huge barrier here.
I've been working as a software developer for nearly 20 years now, going from games programming to business apps to web development and machine learning. In that whole time, I can count only a small handful of times when I've ever had to exhibit mathematical skills more complex than trivial algebra. Oh sure, in college, they made me write my own compilers, I had to write my own vector math routines for my ray tracer, and so on, and I consider these valuable learning experiences. However, in the real world, where I'm employed and make money, I use software libraries for those sorts of things.
When it comes to data structures, the languages of employers today, java and c#, provide me with the majority of structures and optimized-enough algorithms to manipulate them. I don't have to do a big-O analysis and determine if my data patterns will be better served by a skip-list than a quicksort, because we just throw memory and cpu at that anyway!
The point is, if you spend 1-2 years learning to write software - not computer science theory - you'll be ready to enter the workforce. Sure, you're not going to be someone creating those frameworks, you're not going to be an architect, but you'll be able to use them. A few years of real world problems and google at your finger tips, and it's likely you'll have learned enough to start tackling those harder problems.
Here's a list of what I'd prioritize before computer science theory, in regards to employment:
- Proficient in SQL and at least one database type
- Familiar with IDEs, source control, bug/task trackers, automated builds and testing, debugging tools and techniques.
- Ability to work in a group software project.
- Exposure and participation in a full blow software development life cycle (SDLC) from reading, writing, evaluating requirements, coding, debugging, QA, unit testing, the oft-overlooked documentation, etc. Include at least something waterfall and something agile-ish.
- Expert with HTML & CSS, javascript, and awareness of javascript libraries and frameworks.
I don't think I need to explain the value of any of these, and these practical concerns trump high level concepts like discrete mathematics or heuristic design for the entry-level developer.
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As far as effort involved to usefulness ratio you have it right-- SQL is very easy to learn and immediately useful. I have recommended it to business folks that want to dabble in programming- thinking in terms of sets is pretty easy for most people to understand.
Don't do it. (Score:2)
The doer and thinker, no allowance for the other.. (Score:2)
It's lucky an associate degree is only two years then. By my lower maths and unsophisticated algorithms that leaves 3 years to be on the job, learning while earning.
Sure, bricklayers don't learn many things that architects and civil engineers do do. But then architects & civil engineers don't learn all the things bricklayers do either.
It's been done ... PGCC (Score:2)
It doesn't have to be math heavy ... you can focus more on 'web design' or even 'user experience design' rather than heavy programming 'web development'.
Prince George's Community College [pgcc.edu] (PG County, Maryland) offers a lot of certificate programs, including ones on 'Computer Graphics' and 'Web Technology', that can be expanded into a AAS in IT (which would require you to take some programming courses, even if concentrating graphics)
Take a look at the pages numbered 116 to 124 the PDF of their 'programs of st
I got a master's degree in that, essentially (Score:2)
Could we have done it if we were 18-year-olds fresh from high school? I doubt it. It's not that the work was difficult (well, aside from server side Java, which was a headache and a half) but the pa
Do not neglect data structures (Score:2)
Data structures (and associated algorithms) is the most vital part of a programmers learning. If you had a good data structures course (and coursework) you are set for life.
And also data structures should be taught in a language with POINTERS (C or Pascal are the usual picks). I don't care if you are teaching a 10 year old, if you don't teach pointers you might as well be teaching Basic.
You don't need to go VERY deep into the subject, B-trees and such are probably overkill for your aims. But the kids need t
Web design isn't CS (Score:5, Interesting)
Such a degree, if it were to exist, should focus NOT on the basics of CS, but on good design.
1) Do cover human factor engineering principles and techniques. Include lab work to do usability testing.
2) Do cover the basics of good design (perhaps a joint Art department effort).
3) Do cover the foundations of programming, but using several web focused languages. C/C++/Algol and friends are wonderful, but you have limited hours.
4) Do provide an introduction to computer security. Chances are it is folks in the backend that need to focus on it, but security holes can occur anywhere.
Good luck.
Changes every 5 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
When I was in college, one of my computer science professors told us that everything he was teaching us would be obsolete by the time we graduated. However, the concepts behind what we were learning would be valuable our entire career. Sure enough, I've never used the exact code in the exact language he taught us, but the generic concepts behind that work in almost any language I program in.
What's wrong with a 5 year training cycle? (Score:3)
Think of the revenue stream. Every 5 years they have to retrain.
Jesus H Christ (Score:3)
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Please mod parent up.
You are asking the wrong question, (Score:2)
First of all, what I have seen in my past 25 years is that, schools teaching science or technology are really bad at it.
For the following two reasons:
1) Web is moving really fast. If your school isn't working with a industrial company, what you will teach is crap.
2) Experience. Knowledge is good, experience trumps knowledge. That is why you have to pay attention to what you teach. If it does not teach experience, then it is a waste of time and money.
Every student should be interned or working on a open sour
so... what do the Employers want? (Score:2)
As part of our mission is to turn out employees immediately ready for the work force, is teaching knowledge-based careers as a vocation appropriate?
So... what are the employers in your area asking for?
I'll suggest working with the top 5 employers who want what you're contemplating and enlist their guidance; let them drive the skills they want to see (also, ask them how they'd like to see those skills be tested and/or demonstrated, so your students will have an easier time meeting their prospective employer's requirements).
Also, iterate often - track the placement + feedback of employers that do hire your students so you can find out what works well,
Local AS in Web Production (Score:2)
Our local state college has numerous AAS/AS degrees, these are generally designed to teach a skill more advanced then high school that you can make some use of.
The AS in computer information technology has a lot of room for specialization, allowing students to select from a large range of in-field electives in this topic such as:
Website Development, Introduction to E-Commerce, Web Animation, E-Commerce Design, Multimedia Programming, Java Programming, Web Programming, Introduction to Computer Programming, A
You're on the right track (Score:2)
The vast majority of web development positions need a guy who can select good Joomla components and write some bits of glue code, tweak some CSS here and some jQuery there.
Not the guy who thinks he needs to invent his own sorting routine every afternoon, and then brag about how his interfaces are so abstract that nobody, not even he, can figure out what the heck they are supposed to do ...
Re:Not a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
2) Like any other degree, the point is to get the piece of paper. You're hoping that the degree shows that people are smart enough to learn a new language with an understanding of how the language of their particular platform works in general. Web development is a lot less based in hard math/logic in general than most other forms of development. You don't train a nurse to perform open heart surgery like they're some kind of cardiologist, thus you don't need to train a javascript developer to write assembly or know advanced calculus.
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Re:Not a good idea (Score:5, Funny)
For 99% of web work, you can get by with the concept of relational databases and three SQL commands: Select, Insert, and Update.
PLEASE don't teach them delete.
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For 99% of web work, you can get by with the concept of relational databases and three SQL commands: Select, Insert, and Update.
PLEASE don't teach them delete.
Correct. DROP TABLE is more proper.
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Relations are a mathematical construct and you need a fair amount of pre-reqs to truly grok it.
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Anything that's obsolete in two years should not be part of schooling.
There are plenty of things that will not be rapidly obsolete that will more then fill a two year (or four year) program.
Start with 'basic computer programming' (any procedural language so long as it's C; this is a washout class, expect a 25% pass rate), then practical HTML, move on to database theory and practice.
Finally one semester of practical web programming per web development platform you can find competent teachers for. Let
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I'd go with C (make it hard enough to achieve a 10% pass rate, else you're not going to weed out those who don't have the stamina to code hours on end, this is the Controller)- followed by databases (any relational database will do, keep it simple, third normal form and select/insert/delete, this is the Model) and then, when they've got the basics, HTML/Javascript (the View). I can see it actually being two terms of each, for six terms total.
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As I said. It's a washout class. Also an attempt at giving them a clue about what's going on under the hood.
Re:Not a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
i agree that anything that's relevant now will not be 2 years from now
-sarcasm on-
Yeah, remember back in the 90's when html, javascript, java, etc. were important for web developers? All long forgotten now.
Not to mention all the OOP languages that were all gone within 2 years of being introduced--like C, C++, etc.
-sarcasm off-
Do you people ever actually read what you type?
Not necessarily true... (Score:2)
If you learned Java, HTML 4/5, CSS, difference of SQL/NOSQL data storage, etc. These things are NOT going to cease in 2 years.
The problem is, that universities are often decades behind. In 2000, my computer science program required Novell Netware, COBOL, and PASCAL was common too. Sure I took some C++ and VB as electives. But how could an entire computer science curriculum be devoid of anything web related in 2000? That was just insane...
It would be like graduating today, and not even touching upon mobil
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If language matters to the CS program, they are doing it wrong - CS is about understanding how to create programs - learning how to design is the important bit, the actual code produced is just an exercise. While there are different libraries and tradeoffs for mobile vs. PC programming, the fundamental ideas are readily transferable.
Change? In the web? Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Javascript and HTML haven't changed all that much. CSS? It's getting to the point where change is slowing down. Web architectures have been stable for years.
Nobody in real life uses higher math in front-end web development. They might use multiplication and division to do layouts. It's debatable whether anyone actually uses algorithms. Data structures would be handy, but it's also arguable whether web developers actually understand them or not - especially if you talk to any DBA about how website A uses the RDBMS.
Web frameworks would be handy. There are general things about frameworks that don't change.
What would be good would be some discussion around the process of building a website, from customer requirements to deployment. How to choose a technology, payment processor, server technology, etc.
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Nobody in real life uses higher math in front-end web development. They might use multiplication and division to do layouts. It's debatable whether anyone actually uses algorithms. Data structures would be handy, but it's also arguable whether web developers actually understand them or not - especially if you talk to any DBA about how website A uses the RDBMS.
Depends on what the web front-end is for. If you work for an engineering firm or one that does research and/or deals with statistics, solid math skills will definitely open some doors.
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Speeding up.
The difference is more frameworks and HR wanting years of experience in each one. No one writes pure JS anymore. Same can be said of languages right? Obviously more code today is written in Java and C#. Mainly because of the ecosystem of a monstrous api's developers choose.
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Javascript hasn't changed. The fashionable way to use it, the libraries and some extra bindings to browser and device functionality might have changed, but the language is still fundamentally the same language that Netscape invented in 1994.
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[E]ncourage independent learning and discovery through projects and reading and not relying solely on lectures
Or put another way, what you get from education is proportinal to what you put into it.
In the late nineties my son was starting his last year of (Aussie) HS, he came home and showed me a single A4 sheet of paper printed on both sides. He said to me with a sigh of incredulity - "Our computer teacher thinks this pascal project will take all year". I read the paper, it started with "phase one" - a simple in memory table to store and retrive some lines of text. Each point added some functionality that eventu
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Degree? Useless.
Not so fast. Degrees are not useless. Sure the technology learned when earning the degree might be obsolete by the time you get out and actually find a job, but the advantage of the degree is NOT the tools, it's the learning of the *process* of software development. It's about the mindset and not about the specific tools you use.
Now if you only learned the tools when you got your degree, it was worthless, but most degree programs do much more than produce coders fluent in the language of the day. They
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" at my community college"
This would be a two year degree with a lot of mentoring, and would likely be 20 credit hours or less.
You *MIGHT* be able to teach somebody some basic web design in that amount of time, but they would end up the young kid on a team doing front end work.
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You didn't demand that they pay you? Go - right now - and tear up your copy of Atlas Shrugged and stick it on a nail in the bathroom, you feather-bedding molly-coddling commie bastard!
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You don't need higher math, algorithms, and data structures in web development.
Much of the javascript I see is far heavier on these items than the avionics code I encounter at work. Also I don't know how a person could do anything technical at all without an understanding of these three items, in any field. They are synonymous with tools, methods, and materials.
2 years pure classroom is pushing it for IT jobs (Score:2)
2 years pure classroom is pushing it for IT jobs and 4 years is loaded with filler and fluff.
We need apprenticeships with on going classes that are not tied down to the old degree system.
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Yeah it is easier just to work at a help desk for an ISP and work your way up making web pages on the side.
Without experience no one will hire you.
It is the opposite of 1980 and earlier where you had a degree == trainable and smart. Nowdays experience and more experience or burger flipping with a massive debt of a now useless degree.
Re:masters degree (Score:4, Funny)
Oblig: http://xkcd.com/435/ [xkcd.com]
And yet your boss, his boss and his boss's boss are probably either MBAs or lawyers. Go figure.
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Mathematics says "Hi, how's it going down there?"
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Seriously? LOL. An applied science doesn't require smarter people than pure science. The intrinsic limitation of being 'applied' would suggest that pure science would actually require smarter people.
In any case, the reality is that neither requires smarter people.
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That's because there are two types of Computer Science departments in universities.
Ones that teach Computer Science, like many liberal arts schools, and those that teach "Computer Science" like a trade skill.
A school that teaches actual Computer Science will be heavily math based as computer science is fundamentally a mathematical discipline.
You could just as easily argue that people drop out of real Computer Science to go EE (I personally know two individuals who did this because they were surprised that C
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You could argue it. But you'd be wrong, pretty much universally.
There might be a school somewhere where CS is a harder program then EE. It's certainly possible.
BTW EE is less 'computer programming' then CS.
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Typically Computer Science is part of the School of Engineering and a very watered down program exists in the School of Business and is called Computer Information Systems or some such thing.
They provide for two totally different career paths.
The former can lead to far more potential career paths. The latter usually leads to the boring JEE and web 'developer' jobs and not much else.
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I thought it was because people with CS degrees consider actual programming (as distinct from pontificating about it) beneath them.
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Who's trying to? And why do you think anyone is? I don't see CS in the title.
Imagine I'm trying to hire a Python programmer who knows a bit about CSS to work on our utterly grody stock control system that has a MySQL backend and needs to talk to our wanky CR
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... our utterly grody stock control system that has a MySQL backend and needs to talk to our wanky CRM system written in fuck knows what.
Tell me how lambda calculus is really the same thing.
The CRM system is written using MS VB with Linq queries. That's how.
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Hitting the link to Classic Slashdot in the footer should send you back -- or just try this link [slashdot.org]. Assuming you have cookies enabled, the choice should stick.